Deep cycle agm battery replacement?

You’re correct, AGM batteries have been used with ordinary vehicles’ charging systems for demanding competition and military applications for several decades and outperforming other conventional 12v batteries . A few folks have apparently managed to out engineer the battery manufacturers and identify vehicle charging issues that everyone has apparently missed all these years. A complementary philosophy is buying cheap Costco batteries that need to be replaced every 2 years as the “best” solution for having the freshest and strongest battery.
I dont understand this take, no one has out engineered the battery manufacturers? Deep cycle agm batteries literally have labels stating what voltage they require and the lc250 doesn't provide it. If anything people think they have out engineered battery companies because they don't experience any issues currently.
 
You’re correct, AGM batteries have been used with ordinary vehicles’ charging systems for demanding competition and military applications for several decades and outperforming other conventional 12v batteries . A few folks have apparently managed to out engineer the battery manufacturers and identify vehicle charging issues that everyone has apparently missed all these years. A complementary philosophy is buying cheap Costco batteries that need to be replaced every 2 years as the “best” solution for having the freshest and strongest battery.

This was the battery I ran in my Jeep:


Specs say "12V" (they could be more specific) but the average flooded lead acid battery will have a resting voltage of 12.6V. My Odyssey Performance series would charge for the most part from my alternator's output to 12.6V, maybe 12.8V on a good day. The alternator's charging voltage was regulated by the vehicle's ECU based on temperature, RPM. Unfortunately, there was a constant draw on the battery from added equipment, the primary reason I upgraded to something better. Topping it off with an AGM charger overnight would net a resting voltage of 13.2 to 13.3V which would gradually drop over a few weeks closer to that 12.6V resting voltage the vehicle's charging system could achieve. Had there been no parasitic drains from added electronics, I would have expected less voltage loss over the same period.

Could I have just left the vehicle to charge the battery? Sure. Would it have performed at its best and maintained that extra small buffer of capacity? Not so much, but it would still start the Jeep when showing either side of 11V on my voltmeter. The OEM battery tapped out when discharged to 12.0V and would only generate a click. For my use case, connecting a charger overnight once a month wasn't a huge inconvenience for a little extra amperage and avoiding that partial state of charge loop the vehicle's charging system alone would keep the upgraded battery in. The Odyssey didn't seem to mind (and they say it is good for 400 discharge cycles- try that with a standard battery), but the Northstar I ran before it would get stubborn about charging to optimal capacity if left to the charging system alone for months and months. It eventually died an early death because I had mostly left it to the vehicle to maintain its charge for its first three years. Sadly, I only read up and found out why I only got a portion of service life out of mine compared to other users after it was too late.

There are plenty of affordable AGMs that won't necessarily need a top up charge, but those batteries will perform closer to what you can expect a standard flooded lead acid battery to do i.e. no extra capacity above what is stated and a similar service life. Periodic charging is a small price to pay should you want or need a little more redundancy in a slightly stronger battery. Avoiding that partial state of charge will help you coax the maximum number of cycles out of that battery you paid extra for to extend that service life. As for competition use, the competition guys will charge banks of high end batteries to have at the ready beforehand and swap them out to maintain maximum voltage available for their amplifiers. Military and industrial users are more likely to look at the battery as something consumable to be replaced proactively at an interval rather than something that can be maintained to last a decade with proper care. If the consumer wants to do the same, it's their money.

If I am dropping close to $500 for a battery, I don't mind an extra step once a month if it means optimal performance and not having to replace it as often. If that price point is hard to justify and periodic charging is too much hassle, then by all means just get the biggest capacity you can find in a flooded lead acid battery from a supplier with the best warranty and replace it proactively as required. In the Jeep world, dual battery systems were not unheard of for overlanding setups, but I have yet to see someone do a dual battery setup in the Land Cruiser. Staying tuned on that front.
 
I dont understand this take, no one has out engineered the battery manufacturers? Deep cycle agm batteries literally have labels stating what voltage they require and the lc250 doesn't provide it. If anything people think they have out engineered battery companies because they don't experience any issues currently.
You are 100% correct. While an AGM battery will likely work for a while in a vehicle that isn't designed for it, the alternator will slowly kill the AGM battery because both the charging and float voltages are different for AGM batteries. Using an AGM battery in a system it wasn't designed for causes the liquid electrolyte in the battery to turn to gas, eventually drying it out. Since AGM batteries have less free electrolyte (liquid) to begin with, gassing an AGM battery will shorten both its life and capacity.

AGM batteries have a lot of advantages over flooded lead acid batteries, but I wouldn't use one in a vehicle that isn't designed for it.
 
You are 100% correct. While an AGM battery will likely work for a while in a vehicle that isn't designed for it, the alternator will slowly kill the AGM battery because both the charging and float voltages are different for AGM batteries. Using an AGM battery in a system it wasn't designed for causes the liquid electrolyte in the battery to turn to gas, eventually drying it out. Since AGM batteries have less free electrolyte (liquid) to begin with, gassing an AGM battery will shorten both its life and capacity.

AGM batteries have a lot of advantages over flooded lead acid batteries, but I wouldn't use one in a vehicle that isn't designed for it.
Is there anything that someone could put between the alternator and the battery that would mitigate this? I don't need this but just curious.
 
I was referring to them checking the OEM battery to make sure it is not defective.

Your AGM will never test at 100% charged, on your charging system. It doesn’t charge at a high enough voltage. It only charges at the required voltage for a flooded lead acid battery.
Even my F150 won’t do the AGM to 100%. People Forscan it to get 90%.

I think it is a battery protection function, sort of like Apple’s “Optimize Charing” setting.

*not a battery expert.
 
Is there anything that someone could put between the alternator and the battery that would mitigate this? I don't need this but just curious.
Not on a Land Cruiser.

On some older vehicles that do have an alternator based charging system, it is sometimes possible to adjust or modify the voltage regulator to increase charging voltage so a high performance AGM battery would see voltages capable of completely charging it in normal driving conditions.

Many years ago, I had a Die Hard Gold series battery in a vintage car- the battery was getting on in years, so I wasn’t too surprised to come out to a no-start condition one evening. In doing some troubleshooting, I discovered the electrolyte in the battery was bone dry. I topped it off with distilled water, put it in a trickle charger and swapped in a different battery to test. Fired up the car and measured 17V at the battery with engine running- my external voltage regulator was pooping the bed and had boiled off the electrolyte due to too high a charging voltage. Several phone calls later, it turns out a replacement voltage regulator was no longer available. A parts man I knew sold me a much newer Mopar regulator he said would work, taping up a few leads that were un-needed in my application. A few minutes with a crimper and screwdriver and I was charging at 13.9V, a much friendlier voltage for my old Die Hard traditional battery. Some car audio competitors used to modify voltage regulators to maintain higher voltages.

The point? Modifying a voltage regulator or engineering an adjustable one can tweak charging voltage, but that is moot for the Land Cruiser and similar vehicles where a DC/DC converter is handling the 12V charging.
 
Is there anything that someone could put between the alternator and the battery that would mitigate this? I don't need this but just curious.
The LC doesn't have an alternator, it uses a DC-to-DC converter. As far as all the facts and figures concerning improper charging values, while they may be accurate, IDK, I do know the AGMs I have installed in my 2004 superduty, are still functioning great after 5 plus years and zero modifications were made to the charging system.
 
Before the conversation shifts too far into "Land Cruisers can't charge AGMs" territory:

Optima DH6.webp


^^EOD Guy's Optima DH6 should charge pretty well in normal usage through the Land Cruiser's charging system alone. Many drop-in AGM upgrades will do pretty well from the DC/DC charger's provided voltage. That doesn't mean there won't be use cases where that AGM doesn't become deeply discharged, and in that scenario the deep cycle function of such a battery will prevent permanent damage from occurring like it would with a flooded lead acid "starting" battery.

The only ones that will require frequent top-ups with an external charger are the brands/models with much higher capacity. Sadly, those are the batteries likely to be most appreciated by overlanding types running lots of extra electronic equipment.

After playing around with Carista a bit (I downloaded and subscribed a few days ago) in hopes of seeing charging voltage in the "ready" state I was pleasantly surprised to see voltages +/- 14V. That doesn't change the fact that Toyota went light when spec'ing out the 12V battery in the Land Cruiser and it is fairly easy to discharge. I saw voltages between 12.5 and 12.7 over a very short period in "accessory" mode. When the time comes, I'll still go AGM deep cycle when I have to replace my original battery.
 
The LC doesn't have an alternator, it uses a DC to DC converter.

True.

The Trailhunter hybrid apparently uses both a DC/DC converter and an under hood alternator, so I am keeping my eyes open to see if someone retrofits to the Land Cruiser. I know that wouldn't be cheap if it proves possible.
 
I wish the Toyota would implement a hibernation mode, which would allow me to turn off everything with the push of a button or through the infotainment system, with a single passive module that would allow me to bring it out of hibernation mode when needed. There is a "cut" fuse that is not installed until after the vehicle reaches the dealer that I haven't had time to investigate yet, that supposedly cuts juice from all non-essential functions. my plan is to remove that fuse and replace with a switch (that's fused) for when the LC is inactive for long periods of time as it's not my daily driver.
 
Is there anything that someone could put between the alternator and the battery that would mitigate this? I don't need this but just curious.
IIRC, the 12 volt battery is charged by the traction battery, not an alternator.
 
I’m taking all this in. Lots of information to consider. I have a plan. But I need to know whether or not the 12v battery is responsible for starting the vehicle. My plan hinges on whether or not it does. Anyone know?
 
I’m taking all this in. Lots of information to consider. I have a plan. But I need to know whether or not the 12v battery is responsible for starting the vehicle. My plan hinges on whether or not it does. Anyone know?
Based on my research, via Google AI, both 12 volt and hybrid battery are needed to start the vehicle. The 12 volt will power the computer to tell the traction battery to spin the electric motor and start the engine.

Only the lx700h has a separate alternator and starter. That is so if the hybrid battery dies you can still drive home with a V6 twin turbo.
 
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Quick response! Thanks. So in other words- we don’t need to consider CCAs with the 12v battery? Because the 12v isn’t directly cranking the starter. It’s just activating the electronics?
 
The 12v is only required to provide voltage to the computers and the hybrid battery starts the engine via the hybrid transmission.

That being said there is also a conventional starter that is powered by the 12v battery should the hybrid starter/system fail. The 12v starter is the exception starting method not the primary.
 
Very informative. Gotta say how much I appreciate all your help here.

So f-it. I’m going to install a 320Ah LiFePO in the stock 12v battery location. I’ll use it in lieu of a portable power station. Like in my T4R I’ll make a power distribution box that connects with Anderson connector. Pigtail an external Anderson so the power box can handle out of vehicle responsibilities. Hard mount an appropriate charger with external plug. Possibly (doubtful) there’s an inline voltage booster/step up between vehicle and battery. If not? I’m more than happy to plug in to top off now and then.

Waaaaay more battery capacity. Can use it as a power bank. Probably less weight than stock.

What am I missing?? Guaranteed I’m missing things. I’m the dumbest smart guy on the planet. But I know y’all can save me if I’m missing what I should see
 
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Quick response! Thanks. So in other words- we don’t need to consider CCAs with the 12v battery? Because the 12v isn’t directly cranking the starter. It’s just activating the electronics?

I wouldn't go as far as to say battery capacity and specs don't matter. The OEM battery is easily discharged, and adding a better one couldn't hurt anything besides your wallet.
 
The 12v is only required to provide voltage to the computers and the hybrid battery starts the engine via the hybrid transmission.

That being said there is also a conventional starter that is powered by the 12v battery should the hybrid starter/system fail. The 12v starter is the exception starting method not the primary.

Would you say you are happy with your Optima battery since the upgrade?
 
Would you say you are happy with your Optima battery since the upgrade?
1000% I did find it's limit tho' three days with the doors/hatch open and it went flat (my fault). But with the addition of the solar charger, during normal use, the Optima has only went flat that one time.
 
1000% I did find it's limit tho' three days with the doors/hatch open and it went flat (my fault). But with the addition of the solar charger, during normal use, the Optima has only went flat that one time.

I expected you would find that battery a plus. So you get days of battery life vs. hours with the OEM battery- reason enough right there.

I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread I'd be upgrading my battery with an AGM deep cycle. For now, watching voltage on the OEM, and expect it'll go south once I get my new dashcam installed.
 
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