only getting 16-17 mpg!

[Nor Cal Cruiser]

I agree with you , the class action lawsuit is stupid, it will go nowhere. Just like the class action lawsuit that has been filed against Toyota for the Tundras 2024-2025 and the hybrid Tundras that have no issues and people are trying to sue them for stupid reasons ! Lawyers are Toxic !

Well, it takes a client to use a lawyer so I would say the toxicity starts with the client. But a good attorney should manage the client and not make flimsy arguments.

 

[TakaraLC]

I agree with you , the class action lawsuit is stupid, it will go nowhere. Just like the class action lawsuit that has been filed against Toyota for the Tundras 2024-2025 and the hybrid Tundras that have no issues and people are trying to sue them for stupid reasons ! Lawyers are Toxic !

The only way such a lawsuit would be successful is if Toyota intentionally installed “test-defeat mechanism” to generate better results during the test, compared to actual usage.

VW got fined for that, and was forced to buyback their vehicles. But in their case, EPA found out that VW specifically designed the car to detect when a test is being conducted, and adjust engine parameters to achieve emission levels that can otherwise not be achieved.

Unless such a mechanism can be proved, a lawsuit has zero chance.

 

[RCFTE]

Well, it takes a client to use a lawyer so I would say the toxicity starts with the client. But a good attorney should manage the client and not make flimsy arguments.

I have zero use for lawyers. They are toxic and awful people. When I had my business I avoided lawyers like the plague and I was always able to resolve any issues thru ethics and honesty, which lawyers have no idea about.

A big part of the problem with the divisiveness and toxicity in this country is for 2 reasons :

1) politicians

2) Lawyers.

 

[racer01]

i'll bite. We have a few cars and my wife splits time between our 23' TRD Pro 4R and 24' LC 1958 (no roof rack) and 265/65-18 Ridge Grapplers.
135 mile round trip commute each day and mix of 75 mph highway for about half the trip and country roads on one end and city on the other. Just about a perfect ratio mix of city, country, and highway.

26k miles in 4R with average in summer at 19.5 mpg and about 18.5 in winter.
8k on LC with average a little over 23 mpg in summer and showing 22 or so in winter.

Same driver, same route, and mix of roads. She drives 5 mph over most everywhere and reasonably light footed most of the time.

I have a heavy foot and when I drove the LC for a few months I was averaging 18-19 mpg with short 10 mi commute, a little more idling, and all country roads.

Driver right foot and speed makes lots of controllable difference. Big tires and roof racks kill mpg and just "are what they are"

 

[swampdog]

I'm getting about 13 liters per 100 km, which works out to about 18 mpg. That's mostly highway driving, driving slower than I'm accustomed to. The RAV4 hybrid that we traded in on the LC used less than half the fuel of the LC, and it only required regular gas.

I'm wondering whether the hybrid system doesn't do much to help fuel mileage on the LC. Considering the amount of space it takes up in the rear area, I expected good things. The vehicle rarely runs on electric power and then only for a few seconds at very low speed. I mentioned this to the dealer and they didn't have any comment - didn't seem to think anything was wrong with it.

 

[HarvLC]

There isn’t anything wrong. You just had the wrong expectation perhaps.

“‘[The motor] is fundamentally designed to really support that part of the torque ramp and power ramp where you know the turbos are coming up to speed,…It helps us with our peak torque and then of course, when our turbo efficiency starts to fall off, it can come back in and assist.’

Because of the small battery, the Tacoma Hybrid doesn’t have a dedicated EV mode. It can drive around on pure electricity at the ECU’s discretion, briefly, at low speeds, and the system can shut off the engine for coasting on the highway. Fuel economy isn’t the priority either….Really, this is about performance.”

Toyota's Hybrid Truck System Will Be a Game-Changer. Here's How It Works

The chief engineers of Toyota’s mid-size trucks explain the new four-cylinder hybrids.

www.motor1.com

 

[Tom M]

I am only getting 16-17 mpg in Eco mode. Seems about 5 mpg less than expected. What are you getting?

About the same when it's below freezing. It seems the hybrid system doesn't come on when it's this cold. Strange. My highway mpg is always bad and my theory is the hybrid system never shuts down the engine at highway speeds so no help there. I get low 20mpg in warmer weather in mixed driving.

 

[HarvLC]

I suspect that that the ECU waits until all fluids are warmed before it will switch over to hybrid.

I have had the engine shut down at 70mph when coasting down a grade, but the engine fires immediately with the slightest application of throttle.

All that is consistent with the intended design as per the above article.

 

[TakaraLC]

I suspect that that the ECU waits until all fluids are warmed before it will switch over to hybrid.

I have had the engine shut down at 70mph when coasting down a grade, but the engine fires immediately with the slightest application of throttle.

All that is consistent with the intended design as per the above article.

Yeah, plus it will run the engine to keep exhaust catalyst at operational temperature and prevent condensation. This helps with emissions and prevents damage to the exhausts system.

IF you run the cabin heater, that will also draw heat from the coolant, which will cause the engine to start.

 

[TakaraLC]

There isn’t anything wrong. You just had the wrong expectation perhaps.

“‘[The motor] is fundamentally designed to really support that part of the torque ramp and power ramp where you know the turbos are coming up to speed,…It helps us with our peak torque and then of course, when our turbo efficiency starts to fall off, it can come back in and assist.’

Because of the small battery, the Tacoma Hybrid doesn’t have a dedicated EV mode. It can drive around on pure electricity at the ECU’s discretion, briefly, at low speeds, and the system can shut off the engine for coasting on the highway. Fuel economy isn’t the priority either….Really, this is about performance.”

Toyota's Hybrid Truck System Will Be a Game-Changer. Here's How It Works

The chief engineers of Toyota’s mid-size trucks explain the new four-cylinder hybrids.

www.motor1.com

Its not the battery, it is the size of the electric motor. Prius has a 80hp electric motor, Rav4 hybrid has a 118hp electric on the front and 54hp electric motor on the rear. I-forcemax on the LC has a 48hp electric motor.

 

[jptruck]

For those wanting to sue, have you even bothered to drive the LC in strict accordance with the EPA City test loop? If you did, you’d likely achieve the rated figure. You’d also likely been shot by one of the many persons that you’d have angered with your excessively-gradual acceleration & deceleration during such loop. But that’s OK, you can still sue someone (but not Toyota).

Kind of hard to do a 95+ degree test right now. No lawyer in the right mind would try to go after Toyota on this. Big Govt or California may, though.

 

[HarvLC]

Its not the battery, it is the size of the electric motor. Prius has a 80hp electric motor, Rav4 hybrid has a 118hp electric on the front and 54hp electric motor on the rear. I-forcemax on the LC has a 48hp electric motor.

I think that is a bit misleading.

Granted, Toyota seems inconsistent and incomplete in how it describes the power output for its various hybrid models and systems. For example, the current non-plug-in Prius uses a 2L gas engine that produces 150 hp & 139 lb ft. The FWD model adds a 83kW (111hp) / 152 lb ft electric motor in order to yield an overall system output of 194 hp (and an undisclosed amount of total torque). So, though the electric motor is rated at 111hp, the overall gain is only 44hp by comparison to the gas engine alone.

For the Tacoma and Land Cruiser systems, Toyota describes the electric motor as a 48hp motor (as you correctly noted). However, that is also the hp increase between the Tacoma’s non-hybrid and hybrid (MAX) versions of the 2.4L iForce (i.e. turbocharged) offerings – i.e. the peak hp is increased from 278 to 326, while the torque is increased from 317 lb ft to 465 lb ft.

Perhaps the electric motor can generate more than 36 kW (48hp), but Toyota has chosen to describe the Tacoma / LC’s electric motor based on its increase to the overall system output rather than its stand-alone capability (as used when describing the Prius)? Or, perhaps the different hybrid system allows the Tacoma / LC to achieve a 100% gain in system output from a 36kW electric motor?

Regardless, though one can think of the battery as being akin to a fuel tank, I don’t think we can ignore a small 1.87kWh battery’s limitation on the electric motor’s contribution to the overall system’s output. Horsepower is a measure of the amount of work produced over a period; it is directly a function of torque and RPM. With its small battery, the LC’s electric motor cannot sustain its peak output for much of the overall RPM range. The system’s torque peaks at 1700 RPM but drops off sharply from there, as shown in the torque curves. I suspect that sharp decline results from the ECU phasing out the use of the electric motor due to the limited capacity of the battery. (It does seem that the electric motor is activated again as the turbo benefit declines at ~3600 RPM, which aligns with the chief engineer’s comment in the above article.)

 

[TakaraLC]

The d

I think that is a bit misleading.

Granted, Toyota seems inconsistent and incomplete in how it describes the power output for its various hybrid models and systems. For example, the current non-plug-in Prius uses a 2L gas engine that produces 150 hp & 139 lb ft. The FWD model adds a 83kW (111hp) / 152 lb ft electric motor in order to yield an overall system output of 194 hp (and an undisclosed amount of total torque). So, though the electric motor is rated at 111hp, the overall gain is only 44hp by comparison to the gas engine alone.

For the Tacoma and Land Cruiser systems, Toyota describes the electric motor as a 48hp motor (as you correctly noted). However, that is also the hp increase between the Tacoma’s non-hybrid and hybrid (MAX) versions of the 2.4L iForce (i.e. turbocharged) offerings – i.e. the peak hp is increased from 278 to 326, while the torque is increased from 317 lb ft to 465 lb ft.

Perhaps the electric motor can generate more than 36 kW (48hp), but Toyota has chosen to describe the Tacoma / LC’s electric motor based on its increase to the overall system output rather than its stand-alone capability (as used when describing the Prius)? Or, perhaps the different hybrid system allows the Tacoma / LC to achieve a 100% gain in system output from a 36kW electric motor?

Regardless, though one can think of the battery as being akin to a fuel tank, I don’t think we can ignore a small 1.87kWh battery’s limitation on the electric motor’s contribution to the overall system’s output. Horsepower is a measure of the amount of work produced over a period; it is directly a function of torque and RPM. With its small battery, the LC’s electric motor cannot sustain its peak output for much of the overall RPM range. The system’s torque peaks at 1700 RPM but drops off sharply from there, as shown in the torque curves. I suspect that sharp decline results from the ECU phasing out the use of the electric motor due to the limited capacity of the battery. (It does seem that the electric motor is activated again as the turbo benefit declines at ~3600 RPM, which aligns with the chief engineer’s comment in the above article.)

The difference lies in the hybrid configuration. Traditional Toyota hybrids, like the Prius, are series-parallel hybrids (also known as power-splitting hybrids). These systems use an advanced planetary transmission capable of dynamically splitting power between the ICE and the electric motor. This allows 100% of the engine's power to either drive the wheels directly or generate electricity for the electric motors to drive the wheels.

Because the transmission can achieve any degree of power split, the ICE is maintained at its most efficient RPM (I believe between 2,500–3,000 RPM). If the engine generates more power than needed to drive the wheels, the surplus is used to charge the battery. Conversely, if more power is required than the engine can provide at a given RPM, the electric motors supplement it. When the battery charge is sufficiently high, the engine shuts off, and the car operates purely on electric power until the battery level drops.

These hybrids typically have relatively small batteries (for example, the RAV4 Hybrid has a 0.9 kWh battery, which is about 50% of the i-FORCE MAX battery capacity). The total system power of these hybrids is not equivalent to the sum of the ICE and electric motor outputs. This limitation arises because the small battery cannot sustain high-power demands from the electric motors for long. Running the motors at maximum power requires diverting a significant portion of the engine’s output to generate electricity, so it is not feasible to fully utilize both the ICE and electric motors simultaneously to drive the wheels (like when electric motors are at 100% capacity, 80% of the ICE power is needed to generate electricity). While it is technically possible to drain the battery to get a brief 100% output from both ICE and electric motors, the hybrid controller doesn't allow this, as it is designed for efficiency and not for short bursts of maximum power. Plug-in hybrids, with larger batteries, can deliver 100% power from both the ICE and electric motors simultaneously since the battery can sustain higher demands for longer durations.

In contrast, the i-FORCE MAX system is unable to achieve a power split where the engine generates electricity while the electric motor drives the wheels. Instead, the electric motor is powered solely by the battery that is charged by regenerative breaking, or when the engine is idling. This design likely explains why Toyota included a relatively small electric motor, as it is intended to assist the ICE and not for extended electric-only driving.

 

[t3lcfe]

MPG is the “forever” story / topic
Hundreds are on going … and hundreds more are coming… probably few thousands soon

15 mpg or 25 mpg is your choice / lifestyle. Enjoy your LC as the ways you want / like.

Happy LC to all. BIG smiles

 

[TheMightyGoose]

FWIW, in my very limited testing, I got lower mpg in eco mode than normal mode . . .

Same

 

[TheMightyGoose]

My MPG varies a lot

8 mpg: cold engine, 1 mile through residential streets with lots of stops
14mpg: back home but engine is a bit warmer now
16mpg: interstate at 85mph, windy
17-18mpg: around town but a bit longer drives, like a 15 minute drive to Costco
20mpg: out on a two-lane highway for a nice long drive
22mpg: same but it’s slightly downhill overall
55mpg: down the mountain

My Fuelly average is 17.4. Best tank was 22.4 (road trip) and worst was 15.4 (only short city drives)

… your mileage may vary …

I just drove from San Diego to Fresno (then Yosemite), which is about 375 miles, and averaged 21-23MPG. On the way home was getting 24.5 from Orange County to San Diego on the I-5. When driving around the valley floor, I was getting 25.5. In LA traffic I was getting 24+. And I’m running Yokohama Geolandar AT4 all terrains. They are 265/70r18. I usually just cruise at 63-65MPH. I notice the MPG goes up a bit if I drop my speed but I like the 60-65 range.

I live in a very hilly area so my usual errand trips around home are closer to 18-19

 

[Paul2660]

With all these reports I am curious does anyone manual compute their mileage or just trust the gauges? I have always found Toyota MPG/range estimates to be low. On my 2010 4-runner usually off by as much as 3 mpg. So far on my LC250 best the gauges show on trips is 20.6. However filling up before and after trips I am seeing 24 to 23. These are all highway interstate trips of 150 to 225 miles. My process:
Fillip before write down current mileage, fillup after write down mileage or read trip meter. Fillup and divide total distance by gallons.
It’s colder here than normal so not expected best MPG.
Paul

 

[HarvLC]

Within the LC’s MID, I use Tank Average, which automatically resets after fill up and then shows a real time display as I drive. Early on, I tested it by manually calculating mpg for a few tanks. It was close enough for my purposes.

 

[wwoodywood]

A few points:
1. Car and Driver’s real world testing got 21 MPG highway in the LC.
2. Most highway speed limits here in PA are 70 mph. People reporting 23 MPG going 60-63 MPH is completely irrelevant where a lot of us live. Happy for you guys, but coasting around like a grandma isn’t an option here for safety reasons.
3. My Defender 110 with the P400 was rated 17/22 and I averaged 17.8 in it. I’m averaging 17.4 in the LC despite a rating of 22/25.
4. All car manufacturers manipulate their cars to max out on the EPA tests. But EPA tests are not realistic driving conditions. I have zero doubt the LC achieved those posted numbers in the EPA reports. There’s no lawsuit there. Some cars’ real world numbers just deviate from the EPA testing more than others. This LC just happens to be one of the worst.
5. I still love the LC, I just hate the gas station more than ever.

 

[TakaraLC]

A few points:
1. Car and Driver’s real world testing got 21 MPG highway in the LC.
2. Most highway speed limits here in PA are 70 mph. People reporting 23 MPG going 60-63 MPH is completely irrelevant where a lot of us live. Happy for you guys, but coasting around like a grandma isn’t an option here for safety reasons.
3. My Defender 110 with the P400 was rated 17/22 and I averaged 17.8 in it. I’m averaging 17.4 in the LC despite a rating of 22/25.
4. All car manufacturers manipulate their cars to max out on the EPA tests. But EPA tests are not realistic driving conditions. I have zero doubt the LC achieved those posted numbers in the EPA reports. There’s no lawsuit there. Some cars’ real world numbers just deviate from the EPA testing more than others. This LC just happens to be one of the worst.
5. I still love the LC, I just hate the gas station more than ever.

I was able to get 23-24 MPG at 75MPH in summer. It is possible when there is no head wind and if you maintain speed.