For wheels, but likely the force used on the drain plug.97 ftlbs???
For an oil drain plug?????
Oil Leak -Post Toyota Service
- Thread starter Winchester44
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Oh yea.. I see that now.. dumb me. Late nite post.
This exact same thing happened to me with my last oil change at 20k miles...
Got home from dealership (as it was still "Toyota Care" coverage), ~15 mile drive, and parked in garage. The next morning I go out to do something and notice the small pool of oil on the garage floor under the vehicle -- this was probably 12-15 hours later, give or take. It was probably about 1/2 Qt, so definitely enough to raise instant concern.
This was late-ish Saturday morning, called the dealership and explained the leak, they said a service tech would call me back...but knowing the service center closed earlier on Saturday, I told them I would be on my way and speak to whomever when I got there.
I was a bit concerned to drive it, but the dipstick check was still in acceptable range, and as I said, it was definitely less than a quart on the ground, so I assumed it would be fine in the short term.
Long story short...they gave me a very similar explanation regarding a bad oil pan washer that they had to replace. I'm about half-way to my next OCI at 22,500 miles now, and haven't had any issues since...but will be conscious of this for all future oil changes.
This also made me very aware that I didn't have any spare 0w-20 in my garage, had I needed to top it off, so I've definitely corrected that as well.
Got home from dealership (as it was still "Toyota Care" coverage), ~15 mile drive, and parked in garage. The next morning I go out to do something and notice the small pool of oil on the garage floor under the vehicle -- this was probably 12-15 hours later, give or take. It was probably about 1/2 Qt, so definitely enough to raise instant concern.
This was late-ish Saturday morning, called the dealership and explained the leak, they said a service tech would call me back...but knowing the service center closed earlier on Saturday, I told them I would be on my way and speak to whomever when I got there.
I was a bit concerned to drive it, but the dipstick check was still in acceptable range, and as I said, it was definitely less than a quart on the ground, so I assumed it would be fine in the short term.
Long story short...they gave me a very similar explanation regarding a bad oil pan washer that they had to replace. I'm about half-way to my next OCI at 22,500 miles now, and haven't had any issues since...but will be conscious of this for all future oil changes.
This also made me very aware that I didn't have any spare 0w-20 in my garage, had I needed to top it off, so I've definitely corrected that as well.
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First, thank you to everyone who commented and shared their thoughts.
The service manager initially told me the technician had over-torqued the drain plug and crushed the crush washer. He described the washer as essentially a sacrificial sealing washer and said it is easy to damage. When I asked how much oil the vehicle had lost, he initially told me it was approximately two quarts low and said that was "no big deal."
Because the vehicle only holds about six quarts of oil, I was obviously concerned about driving roughly 60 miles after the oil change with what I understood to be potentially one-third of the oil capacity gone.
I later spoke with an independent Toyota mechanic. His view was that while the engine was unlikely to have been damaged if it still had four quarts of oil and never lost oil pressure. He said 1/3 of the way between the two marks on the dipstick should be +/- 1 quart low. He said the explanation regarding the drain plug and crush washer raised additional questions. He pointed out that crush washers are designed to crush as part of the sealing process and that the more important question is whether the drain plug threads or oil pan threads were inspected and confirmed to be undamaged.
When I picked up the vehicle, the story changed somewhat. The service manager later told me it was actually closer to three-quarters of a quart low but was not really sure as they do not actually document how much oil is lost in situations like this as that is once again wait for it "no big deal". Personally I think it's a huge deal to document how low the oil actually was lost.
The repair order states only:
"Replaced crush washer, cleaned all oil residue from underneath the vehicle and filled vehicle to proper oil level. Test drove after to verify there are no more leaks or oil dripping from the undercarriage."
There is no mention of:
• How low the vehicle actually was on oil
• The actual cause of the leak (assuming it wasn't the pressure washer failing)
• Whether the drain plug was replaced
• Whether the drain plug threads were inspected
• Whether the oil pan threads were inspected
• Any explanation of how the crush washer failed
I think the best I got out of him was "filled vehicle to proper oil level" which is a basic acknoledgement that their service caused an oil loss event.
At this point, I do not believe there was engine damage. The vehicle never displayed a low oil pressure warning, never made any unusual noises.
My frustration is less about the mistake itself and more about the casual characterization of it. A routine service on a nearly new $70,000 turbocharged Land Cruiser resulted in what I was initially told was approximately one-third of the engine's oil capacity being lost within 24 hours, yet it was characterized as "no big deal." It also took more than one request before the dealership agreed to tow the vehicle.
I can accept that mistakes happen. What I struggle with is the apparent lack of appreciation for the seriousness of an oil loss event. A vehicle that leaves the dealership and loses 1-2 quarts of oil within 12 hours does not strike me as "no big deal," especially when that oil loss was caused by the service itself.
Over the course of the day, the explanation changed from "about two quarts low" to "closer to three-quarters of a quart low" to "we don't really measure it."
What is particularly concerning is that if my wife had not noticed the oil puddle in the driveway that morning, I likely would have continued driving the vehicle and left the next day on a planned 500-mile road trip without knowing there was an active oil leak. Maybe nothing would have happened. Maybe the leak would have remained minor. Or maybe it would have continued losing oil for another 500 miles. The point is that neither I nor the dealership actually knows because fortunately the issue was caught before that occurred.
To me, that uncertainty is exactly why a technician-caused oil leak immediately following service should not be casually dismissed. If a vehicle has to be towed back to the dealership less than 12 hours after a routine oil change because it is lost 17-33% of its oil, I would expect the dealership to recognize that is not good, find out exactly what happened, exactly how much oil was lost, exactly what was inspected, and exactly what was repaired. In my view, an oil leak severe enough to require a tow on a nearly new vehicle is not something that should be categorized as a minor deal.
To make matters more frustrating, I purchased a $370 prepaid maintenance package from this same service advisor that includes five synthetic oil changes (including this one) and five tire rotations. At this point I'm seriously considering asking for a full refund and telling them I'm taking it to a real mechanic. (local independent Toyota/Lexus shop that I have a long and excellent history with)
Curious what others would do in this situation. Would you consider this a simple mistake that was ultimately handled appropriately, or would this cause you to lose confidence in the dealership going forward?
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An unfortunate event no doubt but definitely could have been worse. I think you still came out ok. Agreed the "customer service" part of the ordeal was lacking. That said, I've actually experienced dealerships that are good and put emphasis on this part (Subaru near my house), especially after a mishap, so a new dealer to service your vehicle might be in order.
Re: the technician making such a rookie mistake, that might be every dealer. The oil change corner is where the noobs cut their teeth. You will not see the higher paid or master techs changing oil unless it was part of a more complex job that requires it. Which is why I recommend oil changes as a DIY. Or at the very least be hyper aware for the first few miles as I've seen it all.
Re: the technician making such a rookie mistake, that might be every dealer. The oil change corner is where the noobs cut their teeth. You will not see the higher paid or master techs changing oil unless it was part of a more complex job that requires it. Which is why I recommend oil changes as a DIY. Or at the very least be hyper aware for the first few miles as I've seen it all.
- No oil in sump
- Not enough oil in sump
- Filter not tightened
- Filter tightened too much that the ring oozes out
- Filter gasket not lubricated that it rolls out of the channel on tightening
- Filter is missing
- Filter did not get replaced
- Filter was crushed with a vise-type oil tool and worse, punctured
- Dipstick not put back, creating a vacuum leak
- Dipstick not pushed in all the way, creating a vacuum leak
You did fine. You can only control the controllables, & this was out of your hands.
Might suggest since you have the oil change package from the same dealer that next visit tell them they will take you back to inspect the threads after they drain the oil with the service manager. Inspect the oil plug threads & the oil pan threads.
2nd recommendation is make yourself do a walk around on delivery of the vehicle after any work. Start the car, open the hood, glance under, walk a round & look at bodywork & tires. Probably never catch a thing, but you’ll be darn glad if you happen onto something to get it resolved there.
Last week I flew out to pickup an airplane for a friend who’d left it out of state to get an annual inspection. On my walk around I found the dipstick laying on top of the engine & not screwed into the Continental. I didn’t fix the issue, instead went & got the $250/hr A&P who worked on it to do a recheck. There was no oil in the engine. Had them pull the cowl & show me every line item on the annual on that plane before I flew it back 3 hours. Had more close calls in aircraft from maintenance mistakes than from the hours in the air while flying in the military & majors. I believe they’re good guys & girls with the intent of doing good work, but humans will make mistakes.
Just saying we need to be very diligent.
That stealership would NEVER touch Miss Daisy again. EVER.
This is what I've always believed also. I just hope saving all my DIY maintenance receipts with mileage documentation is enough to keep from voiding my warranty on this new LC. I never had to use my warranty on my 2003 4runner to find out. Its still running strong at 412K miles.
Tech cross threaded the bolt or left it in finger tight. You don't slightly 'over torque' a crush washer and have two quarts of oil on the driveway the next morning. This could have been a disaster with you losing an engine. You should write a negative review and never visit that dealership again.
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These kinds of experiences are what make me think that “well maintained dealership records” is an oxymoron.
To the OP, I would create a stink and force the dealership to do oil analysis and look for any high levels of wear metals. I’d also open a ticket with Toyota brand management and explain your situation and see if they can help intervene and put pressure on the dealership on your behalf.
For future issue prevention, you could opt to install something like a fumoto drain valve which would basically mean they don’t have to use an oil drain bolt. I personally do not like them because they drain so slow but it would get rid of any technician thread stripping issues. I would just let the service advisor very aware of the fumoto valve. The best course of action, imho, would be to skip using dealerships for oil changes outside of the provided Toyotacare coverage.
To the OP, I would create a stink and force the dealership to do oil analysis and look for any high levels of wear metals. I’d also open a ticket with Toyota brand management and explain your situation and see if they can help intervene and put pressure on the dealership on your behalf.
For future issue prevention, you could opt to install something like a fumoto drain valve which would basically mean they don’t have to use an oil drain bolt. I personally do not like them because they drain so slow but it would get rid of any technician thread stripping issues. I would just let the service advisor very aware of the fumoto valve. The best course of action, imho, would be to skip using dealerships for oil changes outside of the provided Toyotacare coverage.
I support the finger-tight theory. The drain plug takes 30ft-lbs if memory serves, and an effort that causes the plug to strip would be blatantly obvious.
Not so much on the cross thread. The plug and orifice are tapered in a way that makes it difficult to do that, but I suppose anything is possible.
I've heard far too many stories like this. I have little confidence in dealership service in general - only taking my cars in if I have no better alternative. Dealerships and quick-lube shops often don't pay their technicians enough to treat your $70,000 vehicle with the level of care it deserves. Many technicians are paid according to "book hours" instead of the actual hours worked, creating time pressures that can affect the job—even when they genuinely care about doing quality work.
That's one of the reasons I prefer to change my own oil. If you have the tools, space, and ability to do it yourself, you know exactly what oil is going in and what is coming out. You can also control the quality of the filter, drain plug, and crush washer being used.
And cardboard crush washers? Really? They should be using the blue rubber-bonded soft aluminum crush washers.
I would take the Land Cruiser to a reputable Toyota shop on the next oil change and have them inspect and advise.
That's one of the reasons I prefer to change my own oil. If you have the tools, space, and ability to do it yourself, you know exactly what oil is going in and what is coming out. You can also control the quality of the filter, drain plug, and crush washer being used.
And cardboard crush washers? Really? They should be using the blue rubber-bonded soft aluminum crush washers.
I would take the Land Cruiser to a reputable Toyota shop on the next oil change and have them inspect and advise.
I have heard of so many Toyota dealer low quality service experiences that I go to an independent service owned by a friend. Most Toyota dealers hire these kids that dont seem to care about pride in the work they do. I recommend to Try to find an independent service that works on Toyota vehicles. Just make sure that you follow all recommended services and keep the receipts for warranty purposes.
if you have a Toyota 250 2.8l diesel engine, the oil is leaking from the cam from oil filter after relis oil filter
My notes say 21ft-lbs, but I don't recall where I read or heard that. My Tacoma is 30ft-lbs, so I could be wrong about the LC.
Agreed, I have free oil changes with my dealer, but just can't stand to let some knucklehead screw up something this simple...which they do too often. You just convinced me to stay away.
This is not difficult. Yes it has a torque number, but firm is pretty easy , meaning once it shows resistance it is less than an 1/8th turn...... been doing this for 50+years..... I 100% agree you should visually see the threads on the oil pan. If stripped demand it be replaced or you will call your lawyer and watch the $$$ add up....make them admit their fault, make them correct their fault, make them aware you are being more than fair.
At best, be cautious. Following my first Toyota Care visit at a well rated dealership, I had a Low Washer Fluid message come up about 15 miles away. Topping off fluids is part of the listed maintenance activities so I panicked thinking "if they missed this, what else?" Immediately pulled over and did an oil level and visual check. The only thing I thought I found was improper tire rotation which turned out to match the pattern shown somewhere in the bowls of the manual (I now specify the pattern). After getting home, I complained to the service advisor. He apologized for the miss and offered a free detailing. I have since been back to this dealership and would go again. But I also check their work.
That said, I do not think the simple fact that it's a Toyota dealership any longer means service above average automatically and have had a very bad experience and have a particular dealership there is no way I would allow to touch my LC - Nightmare
Bottom line - do like @GR8Santini and a politician from the past recommend: trust but verify.
That said, I do not think the simple fact that it's a Toyota dealership any longer means service above average automatically and have had a very bad experience and have a particular dealership there is no way I would allow to touch my LC - Nightmare
Bottom line - do like @GR8Santini and a politician from the past recommend: trust but verify.
I use firm & snug w/ a 3/8 ratchet, then 1/8 to 1/4” to seat crush washer.
Every time I hear of a dealership or shop fucking up the simplest maintenance item I'm really glad I change my own oil. Fumoto valve makes it super easy and no chance of over tightening the oil plug.
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