Oil Change Intervals & Oil Brands

I’m really interested to learn more about your research, because these findings are interesting. If you can share some of your methodology it might shed light on the confusing findings.

The market observation I'll grant you. "different markets don't have identical motors with different tolerance" is a fair point, and the same engine getting 0W-20 here and 5W-30 in Europe or Australia hasn’t been well explained anywhere that I’ve seen. That's an argument about why the recommendation differs. It isn't yet an argument about what the oil is doing in the sump. So:

You wrote "HTHS is what causes the oil to break down BEFORE 10K." Can you walk me through that mechanism, and how you measured it? HTHS is a viscosity measurement taken at 150°C at a shear rate of one million reciprocal seconds. It's a number that describes the oil, the way a torque spec describes a bolt. What's the pathway you observed by which a measurement (HTHS) causes degradation? Oxidation, nitration, fuel dilution, TBN depletion, and permanent VII shear are processes. Which process are you actually pointing at when you state HTHS causes the oil to breakdown early?

Related: you list "~2.5-2.7 with 20 weights." SAE J300 sets the HTHS minimum for the SAE 20 grade at 2.6 and for SAE 30 at 2.9. A licensed xW-20 at 2.5 doesn't exist. Where did your 2.5 come from?

On "this breakdown typically occurs in the 6-7000 mile zone predictably," and "as was shown very nicely by analysis on this forum": how many samples, across how many engine families? And the one that matters more, what did the 30-weight UOAs from those same engines, same mileage, same driving pattern show? And more importantly, as asked above, what exactly did you observe break down? Without that comparison I don't see what the 6-7000 number is measured against.

"the oil is still 99% doing its job." 99 percent of what, and how did you measure it?

On the interval: you say moving to a 30 makes it "very safe to extend oil change interval to at least 7500 miles." What does the 30-weight have more of? Same detergent, same antioxidant package, same starting TBN, same dilution rate in the same engine. If viscosity grade sets the safe interval, what's the mechanism your research uncovered?

"has NO downside." What did you measure to establish that? Did fuel economy delta, cam phaser response time, and oil temperature all get measured as a part of your research? Phasers, chain tensioners, and AFM/DoD lifters are hydraulically actuated and calibrated around a viscosity, so I assume they were all carefully considered in your research.

"It is still the world standard." Japan is on 0W-16 and 0W-8 factory fill. Which standard are you talking about?

The filter point I think is well-proven, at least for cellulose media.
I do not thing the same gasoline engine is not offered in LC 250 in Australia or Europe, it is diesel in both markets. Gasoline option is only offered in NA and Middle east, and 5w-30 makes sense in if you are in Dubai with daytime lows in 90F and highs in 120F.
 
I do not thing the same gasoline engine is not offered in LC 250 in Australia or Europe, it is diesel in both markets. Gasoline option is only offered in NA and Middle east, and 5w-30 makes sense in if you are in Dubai with daytime lows in 90F and highs in 120F.
I wonder if using 0W-20 in colder months, and 5W-30 in warmer months is worthwhile. 🤔
 
I do not thing the same gasoline engine is not offered in LC 250 in Australia or Europe, it is diesel in both markets. Gasoline option is only offered in NA and Middle east, and 5w-30 makes sense in if you are in Dubai with daytime lows in 90F and highs in 120F.
I think I’m missing your point, but the 250-series can be had in several different petrol/gasoline configurations:
  • TJH250 is equipped with the T24A-FTS 2.4L I4 turbo petrol hybrid (i-Force Max) and is available in the US and China
  • TJA250 is equipped with the same T24A-FTS 2.4L I4 turbo petrol, sans the hybrid motor and is available in the Middle East and Eastern Europe
  • TRJ250 is equipped with the 2TR-FE 2.7L I4 petrol and is available in Japan and Eastern Europe
  • And of course the TJA252 (GX550) has the F35A-FTS 3.4L V6 twin-turbo petrol. I haven’t yet been able to confirm all markets the GX is being sold in
Again, sorry because I definitely missed your point and all of above may be irrelevant or even supporting what you mean 😆
 
I think I’m missing your point, but the 250-series can be had in several different petrol/gasoline configurations:
  • TJH250 is equipped with the T24A-FTS 2.4L I4 turbo petrol hybrid (i-Force Max) and is available in the US and China
  • TJA250 is equipped with the same T24A-FTS 2.4L I4 turbo petrol, sans the hybrid motor and is available in the Middle East and Eastern Europe
  • TRJ250 is equipped with the 2TR-FE 2.7L I4 petrol and is available in Japan and Eastern Europe
  • And of course the TJA252 (GX550) has the F35A-FTS 3.4L V6 twin-turbo petrol. I haven’t yet been able to confirm all markets the GX is being sold in
Again, sorry because I definitely missed your point and all of above may be irrelevant or even supporting what you mean 😆
I jumped through several hoops to find the eastern european user manual for LC250 in English lol. It also recommends 0w-20 but says 5w-30 is acceptable if 0w-20 is not available (and should be replaced with 0w-20 later).

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Here we go again. Just follow best practices for what you know - & when you don’t know, use your best judgement. Earlier is probably better than later, but your call.

Mileage doesn’t matter, nor does calendar with severe duty - lots idling, high speed highway, traffic jams, throw in some towing, AWD, all in high heat. There is no deep research on severe duty, even Toyota has stopped defining it in owners manuals. Haven’t seen any taxi or police car research on the T24A that I know of. I do know oil breaks down earlier under those conditions. 5W30 gives me an edge, as does changing it earlier than later. Go do what you want.

Aircraft engine maintenance isn’t done on miles - it’s done on Hobbs meter time - time that an engine operated both on the ground or in the air. Marine engines, ag, industrial, military all use Hobbs time. In severe duty, using miles can very much understate the total use of an engine. Drive up a fire trail that is 18 miles long in 4Lo @ 9mph. Engine was @ 2-3K rpm for 2 hours in hard use on a grade. But come oil change that trip is just another 18 miles in your odometer. Always found it strange automotive doesn’t use operational time for service intervals.

What do I know, probably wouldn’t sell oil & filters as well.
 
Here we go again. Just follow best practices for what you know - & when you don’t know, use your best judgement. Earlier is probably better than later, but your call.

Mileage doesn’t matter, nor does calendar with severe duty - lots idling, high speed highway, traffic jams, throw in some towing, AWD, all in high heat. There is no deep research on severe duty, even Toyota has stopped defining it in owners manuals. Haven’t seen any taxi or police car research on the T24A that I know of. I do know oil breaks down earlier under those conditions. 5W30 gives me an edge, as does changing it earlier than later. Go do what you want.

Aircraft engine maintenance isn’t done on miles - it’s done on Hobbs meter time - time that an engine operated both on the ground or in the air. Marine engines, ag, industrial, military all use Hobbs time. In severe duty, using miles can very much understate the total use of an engine. Drive up a fire trail that is 18 miles long in 4Lo @ 9mph. Engine was @ 2-3K rpm for 2 hours in hard use on a grade. But come oil change that trip is just another 18 miles in your odometer. Always found it strange automotive doesn’t use operational time for service intervals.

What do I know, probably wouldn’t sell oil & filters as well.
It’s ok if you don’t like this topic being discussed, but we’re going to anyway. When I see absolute claims being made with no evidence to support them, I use the Socratic method to parse unfounded opinion from well-reasoned analysis.
 
It’s ok if you don’t like this topic being discussed, but we’re going to anyway. When I see absolute claims being made with no evidence to support them, I use the Socratic method to parse unfounded opinion from well-reasoned analysis.
Thanks for sharing, but no sir, the post doesn’t bother me at all.
I’ll get the popcorn.
 
Thanks for sharing, but no sir, the post doesn’t bother me at all.
I’ll get the popcorn.
Pop a bag for me too! 😆

Also, I will eagerly sign a “start measuring vehicle use in hours instead of miles” petition - I’m totally with you on that.
 
Just to make LC owners a bit less anxious about recommended change interval... my wife's new Defender arrived. We were told to come back in 20,000 miles for the first service. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but now i have another rabbit hole to jump into- any good forum recommendations?
 
Engine lubricants continue to improve to save energy and extend change intervals(save energy). Engine labs set standards and measure metal wear over x number of hours and load. Engines that stop and start frequently benefit from the lowest viscosity to prevent start wear. Heavier vis oils require more energy to move. At XOM we built a low viscosity base stock hydrotreater with the goal of improving fleet OE mpg by 1.5 mpg in 2005. Engine lubricants are even better now.
 
Just to make LC owners a bit less anxious about recommended change interval... my wife's new Defender arrived. We were told to come back in 20,000 miles for the first service. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but now i have another rabbit hole to jump into- any good forum recommendations?
a forum with a lot of bored helpful mechanics
 
Just to make LC owners a bit less anxious about recommended change interval... my wife's new Defender arrived. We were told to come back in 20,000 miles for the first service. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but now i have another rabbit hole to jump into- any good forum recommendations?
 
Just to make LC owners a bit less anxious about recommended change interval... my wife's new Defender arrived. We were told to come back in 20,000 miles for the first service. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but now i have another rabbit hole to jump into- any good forum recommendations?
Okay… I’ll bite.

It’s very doable to make an engine oil that can go 20,000 miles before shearing out of speck.. but according to The Motor Oil Geek, it’s the microscopic debris that the filter cannot/will not filter that trashes the internals of your engine.

Oil is cheep. You know the drill.
 
I had to look that up. Sure enough Land Rover is 2yrs @ 21K miles for first oil change. Incredible. Find no reason for that, except maybe it
helps lower their high cost of ownership marketing.
Can’t forget Ford & Nissan stating their vehicles having lifetime transmission fluid. Then I applied logic that their transmissions don’t have a long life…
 
I change mine every 3K miles, it was either the Car Care Nut or Motor Oil Geek said to change it every 3K miles do to it being a turbo. Was using Toyota filter but after Oil Analysis, MOG said the high silicon numbers were do to the Toyota filters, so switched to the Purolator One PL14477, on MOG’s recommendation, also 98% effective at 20 microns.
Was using Pennzoil Ultra Plat until they stopped using Gas To Liqiuid (GTL base), switched Idemitsu 0W-20 GF-7, little more expensive, mix of Group III/IV base oil
 
I had to look that up. Sure enough Land Rover is 2yrs @ 21K miles for first oil change. Incredible. Find no reason for that, except maybe it
helps lower their high cost of ownership marketing.
Can’t forget Ford & Nissan stating their vehicles having lifetime transmission fluid. Then I applied logic that their transmissions don’t have a long life…
I'll say that we towed 14000lbs 1300miles in a nissan armada. I didnt realize it was 14k until the weighstation. Car was pulling it okay so we carried on, very carefully. 100000 miles later the transmission failed because the hose to oil cooler blew off and my son just kept driving it until it croaked. Just needed new friction discs for rebuild. Nissan trans in the armadas and titans at least, are (were?) stout. And mine never showed above midway on trans temp gauge.
 
I'll say that we towed 14000lbs 1300miles in a nissan armada. I didnt realize it was 14k until the weighstation. Car was pulling it okay so we carried on, very carefully. 100000 miles later the transmission failed because the hose to oil cooler blew off and my son just kept driving it until it croaked. Just needed new friction discs for rebuild. Nissan trans in the armadas and titans at least, are (were?) stout. And mine never showed above midway on trans temp gauge.
Those older Titans/Armadas/Patrols are great tough trucks. Shame what Nissan has become.
 
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