Fuel - Premium only?

[basicxj]

It’s ok for people to enjoy discussing something you do not.

If it is Land Cruiser related, I am probably good for a read even if I have my own thoughts on the subject at hand.

Having driven in traffic next to various vehicles pinging like a MoFo™ going uphill on the cheapest fuel available, I don't have too much desire to see how the Land Cruiser performs long term on that cheapest fuel, though I can understand why others want to see for themselves considering today's challenging economics. I say this knowing full well my preferred fuel isn't going to be available everywhere either.

 

[Mopper]

Lower than optimal fuel octane typically won't throw a CEL, but it will dial back power so as to avoid detonation conditions.

I ran premium non-ethanol in my Jeep for the first five years I owned it because the lack of ethanol made more power and fuel economy went up. The higher concentration of detergents didn't hurt either. The same performance/mileage increase would likely have been observed if a lower octane non-ethanol fuel was available in my area but it wasn't.

As the pandemic caused fuel prices to spike, I became an expert on pinching pennies at the pumps. Even though the Jeep was reputed to run just fine on regular, it ran better on mid-grade and both returned poorer mileage compared to non-ethanol as there is less energy in ethanol blends compared to straight gasoline. When I threw a tank of premium non-ethanol in again periodically, that engine would run smoother after an adjustment period, made more power and mileage crept back up towards what I was used to for the majority of that tankful. For the most part I stuck with the mid-grade after about 2021 and just got used to poorer fuel economy. It would use up to 17.8L per 100 km around town, making the Land Cruiser look pretty darn good.

"...use up to 17.8L per 100km..."

So that's L/km (~ gal/mile) and the number is 0.178 so converting yields equivalent imperial measurement of 4.7 g/62 m or 0.0758 g/m. Pretty strange metric. Converting to the more conventional mpg's (62m/4.7g) ~= 13.2 mpg or 5.6 km/L. More will understand this I think

 

[basicxj]

"...use up to 17.8L per 100km..."

So that's L/km (~ gal/mile) and the number is 0.178 so converting yields equivalent imperial measurement of 4.7 g/62 m or 0.0758 g/m. Pretty strange metric. Converting to the more conventional mpg's (62m/4.7g) ~= 13.2 mpg or 5.6 km/L. More will understand this I think

Probably. Vehicles sold up here don't default to "Freedom Units." That is the metric we get off the showroom floor.

That would be 13.21 mpg for those south of the 49th parallel.

 

[TakaraLC]

"...use up to 17.8L per 100km..."

So that's L/km (~ gal/mile) and the number is 0.178 so converting yields equivalent imperial measurement of 4.7 g/62 m or 0.0758 g/m. Pretty strange metric. Converting to the more conventional mpg's (62m/4.7g) ~= 13.2 mpg or 5.6 km/L. More will understand this I think

Volume of fuel per distance is actually a much better unit for fuel economy. It is on a linear scale where gas savings scale linearly with the fuel economy value. For example, if you make a round trip, total fuel economy will be the simple average of each leg of the trip.

MPG on the other hand is a non-linear against gas savings. For example, if you make a round trip with 1st leg 20 MPG and 2nd leg 40 MPG, the average MPG will be ~27, not 30. It also causes people to overestimate gas savings when buying new cars. Like when someone who has a 40mpg vehicle buys a 60 mpg vehicle, they think it will be a massive improvement. But the savings will be equal to going from 30 to 40 MPG vehicle. This is known as “MPG illusion”.

The reason for this is MPG values were originally published so that people can estimate if they would have enough fuel to make it to the next gas station. Like if the car was getting 15 MPG, and the next gas station was 150 miles away, you could easily calculate that you would need around 10 gallons to make it.

 

[Mopper]

The measurements being referred to are ratios using identical inputs, regardless of measurement system. The difference between the two measurements, not measuring systems, makes the two numbers inverses of one another. One ratio makes it easier to see operating economy while the other makes it easier to see operating efficiency, that's really the only difference. I had not used L/Ckm for economy before but it very well supports mileage discussions around premium vs. regular. At the end of the day both ratios are intended to communicate meaning, I didn't get the meaning of the ratio so I simply did the math. Like you always should. Probably the wrong time to bring up significant figures....

 

[Sugarloafer80]

My experience with an authorized Toyota reflash on ‘25 Tundra’s Engine ECU makes me lean that our LC’s probably get very specific Engine ECU mapping for the LC parameters & suspect Tacoma/4Runner get their own.

A reflash was required after installing the OE TRD Tundra Performance Package components. The flash was certainly specific on the Tundra with 12 different ECU CAL ID (flash) choices (see table). Installation kit included gas tank stickers & glove box placard recommending to run Premium. Without the flash the kit’s new (2) TRD CAI air flow causes CEL to come on. Flash supposed to improved HP a bit, but driving I can say torque was better out of the hole, improved throttle tip-in, drivability & better shift points. The package is locked down now only available ordering it as option on new Tundra . Parts system doesn’t let you order easily.

View attachment 67769View attachment 67790

By chance, is the TRD running a different OD tire? That alone could be the reflash, esp with regards to tire revs, resulting rpms, shift point algorithms, etc. Also different markets with different fuels etc....you said it shifts better. Major OD tire changes have multiple affects.
If the stock intake is the bottleneck, opening up flow can have major issues too. Very common on Toyota motors I have dealt with in Lotus world. 2ZZ and 2GRfe. CAI was a real PIA to develop. Radium screwed up badly on the 1st NA version of the Evora....Sure big HP boost, but the shape overaccelerated airflow, could cause CEL and a few motors detonated due to lean burn. I had a Radium..sold car with no issues.....lucky I guess.!. With a simple CAI and Larini exhaust, you could go from 276 to ~just shy of 300HP....no other tuning. The relation of intake and tranny shifting on Toyotas are another PIA to contend with in tuning world and was experienced with Evora 2GRfe and IPS tranny. So your reflashes are no surprise to me at all....but numbers WILL NOT be identical.

GR8Santini, being honest, when you said no carbon issues with DI, it revealed a glaring misunderstanding of motors. DI injection makes power but without sideport injection that wash the valves, the motor is destined to fail with carbon issues. Do some research on the profoundly shitty motors in most Volkswagens!!!! They are about as bad as it gets....therefore, carry that over to all VAG motors......its been a quietly hidden achilles for years. Porsche just hides IMS issues...hehehehehe...germans never make mistakes my as$!

LSPI and our new SP oils are specifically designed to address these issues. Valvoline Restore and Protect is a new paradigm in motor oil. Everyone else is playing catchup. I have witnessed it firsthand. It has released a ring on my 4C that never burned oil on street, but would eat a quart on track. Monday it burned NOTHING!!! All within 200 miles!!!

I am not an offroad guy, but my years on track have given me a different perspective, ironically with Toyota motors over the past 20yrs. Camry made 268 HP, Evora made 276.........see numbers not same......even a few parts change the numbers....

 

[rick3242]

And they get the same numbers......any other components that would be involved with ECU programming that are on one vehicle, but not the other. Modes, drivetrain communication with different AWD systems??? But, this is some evidence, finally.So the 2 we look at are 89666-60x20 and 89666-60x10. Core number same, but variants.....by 1 digit....Dick tracy on the scene. Time for input from Sherlock and Perry.......I gots ta know man!

That one digit can make a huge difference - from experience.

 

[GR8Santini]

By chance, is the TRD running a different OD tire? That alone could be the reflash, esp with regards to tire revs, resulting rpms, shift point algorithms, etc. Also different markets with different fuels etc....you said it shifts better. Major OD tire changes have multiple affects.
If the stock intake is the bottleneck, opening up flow can have major issues too. Very common on Toyota motors I have dealt with in Lotus world. 2ZZ and 2GRfe. CAI was a real PIA to develop. Radium screwed up badly on the 1st NA version of the Evora....Sure big HP boost, but the shape overaccelerated airflow, could cause CEL and a few motors detonated due to lean burn. I had a Radium..sold car with no issues.....lucky I guess.!. With a simple CAI and Larini exhaust, you could go from 276 to ~just shy of 300HP....no other tuning. The relation of intake and tranny shifting on Toyotas are another PIA to contend with in tuning world and was experienced with Evora 2GRfe and IPS tranny. So your reflashes are no surprise to me at all....but numbers WILL NOT be identical.

GR8Santini, being honest, when you said no carbon issues with DI, it revealed a glaring misunderstanding of motors. DI injection makes power but without sideport injection that wash the valves, the motor is destined to fail with carbon issues. Do some research on the profoundly shitty motors in most Volkswagens!!!! They are about as bad as it gets....therefore, carry that over to all VAG motors......its been a quietly hidden achilles for years. Porsche just hides IMS issues...hehehehehe...germans never make mistakes my as$!

LSPI and our new SP oils are specifically designed to address these issues. Valvoline Restore and Protect is a new paradigm in motor oil. Everyone else is playing catchup. I have witnessed it firsthand. It has released a ring on my 4C that never burned oil on street, but would eat a quart on track. Monday it burned NOTHING!!! All within 200 miles!!!

I am not an offroad guy, but my years on track have given me a different perspective, ironically with Toyota motors over the past 20yrs. Camry made 268 HP, Evora made 276.........see numbers not same......even a few parts change the numbers....

Yes sir, I'm not super sharp some mornings after a flight day & layover. If you look back at my post I acknowledged the error & corrected the post. Hope that suffices.

Tires have nothing to do with the reflash on the Tundra TRD Performance Package. The flash is required because of the sensor adjustments to allow the TRD CAIs & smoother & larger bellows, center free flow muffler & tailpipe. The V35A is very particular on MAP sensitivity - especially w/ 2 of them. The HP goes from 389 to 421, but as mentioned the big change was having 479 lb-ft of torque now @ 2000 rpm. I also have the components under warranty. After install a Tundra w/ 35” tires accelerate like it has OE size tires again.

I’ve run regular, mid & premium fuels & the ECU just adjusts & you move on. I won’t tow w/o premium, and try not to do high speed highway, but could occasionally happen if the fuel grade is out. Actual experience leads me to having no concern w/ either my warranty, or long term confidence in our T24A or V35A being driven in normal use on regular grade fuel. Maybe the bigger question is Premium also a better fuel for a dual-injection system in having more cleaning additives. Confess I really have ‘glaring misunderstandings’ on auto fuel chemistry!

 

[Sugarloafer80]

That is a significant bump in HP via a factory authorized tune and factory parts! Toyota knows full well how different a tune is with more air in/more air out parts., and in your case, the resultant HP/Torque values do indeed differ as they will with fuel choice. Optimized for premium, retarded back for regular. (has to be) You 100% support my assumptions on LC. (T24A-FTS i-FORCE MAX).

Crazy!
This topic is going to pass 2050…Probably go beyond our lifetime and NO 100% Conclusion / Agreement….What for ?

As over 30 years of Engineer and company leader, I involved/ designed / managed products with our specific/clearly specs to cover our company assets/ reputations (law suit avoidance…)
Bottom line, consumers feel free to practice/ use on their own decisions, but can’t blame on the manufacturers / products

Just do whatever you want…
All explanations, arguments, non-reliable proofs are useless and do not convince anyone except ourselves/yourself !
Move on and happy LC

Go play with tires......

 

[ultane]

Pretty sure Costco is having a big run on all this tin foil from all the conspiracy hats yall are sitting around making.

Please explain…

 

[RideWithYanu]

Please explain…

Think it’s just a joke that Costco (who presumably sells aluminum foil?) is going to run out of stock after we conspiracy theory enjoyers buy it all up to make our aluminum foil hats.

 

[ultane]

Think it’s just a joke that Costco (who presumably sells aluminum foil?) is going to run out of stock after we conspiracy theory enjoyers buy it all up to make our aluminum foil hats.

Sometimes imadufus…

 

[RideWithYanu]

Sometimes imadufus…

Same (except it’s most of the time in my case).

 

[basicxj]

Think it’s just a joke that Costco (who presumably sells aluminum foil?) is going to run out of stock after we conspiracy theory enjoyers buy it all up to make our aluminum foil hats.

Don’t knock it. There is a lot to be said for keeping the voices out

 

[Sugarloafer80]

And I thought they'd run out of TP with all the BS going around.....

 

[Mopper]

I might have to order up the duct tape chin strap... seems essential now that I've seen one...

 

[RideWithYanu]

I might have to order up the duct tape chin strap... seems essential now that I've seen one...

Yeah I haven’t incorporated that mod yet. Gubment will never get in my brain now!

 

[hikerdrg]

From someone who really doesn’t care
People are going to use whatever fuel they want. You can do all your calculations, speculations and opinions but people will make their own choice. It will be either the right one or the wrong one. Only time will tell.
However, if there is ever a vote…….
I will choose Premium every time
I know this doesn’t solve anything….but I feel better now.
Thanks
The End

 

[Mopper]

Actually this discussion has moved me toward running premium and away from regular. My old perspective was that if I saw that regular was $0.60 (or less) than premium, I bought premium because there was a straight mileage payback that left me in the black or even. Other than that I did regular unless heading offroad.

Now there may be an Internal engine component wear/fail component: the discussion of carbon buildup on the (intake?) valves between @GR8Santini & @Sugarloafer80 caught my attention. Roughly paraphrasing, '...it may be that additional detergent action of premium grade fuel provides improved washing action on the valves...'

But LOGICALLY there's a hole- the washing action would only occur on the intake valve(s)? And exhaust valves aren't the compression loss culprits that are going to fail at the same rate?

 

[basicxj]

I burn a lot of Chevron gas. Have been since switching over in the 80’s. Back when they introduced Techron (their stand alone cleaning additive) and Techroline (detergent pack added to their gasoline) I was privy to a little bit of inside information which was enough to have me stick with their fuel. Higher grades get a greater concentration of Techroline.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/chevrons-response-on-pea-in-techron.169081/

Chevron’s Techron contains PEA, which is generally considered to be the most effective fuel systems and combustion chamber cleaner.

Many fuel distributors get the same base fuels. What differentiates them between brands is the additive pack that is put into the gas prior to retail. Most top tier fuels have a decent additive pack, but I have had good experiences using Techron and Techroline. Sadly, stand alone Techron doesn’t seem to be available in my area, so I used to grab some when south of the border.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/best-injector-cleaner-with-p-e-a-for-the-money.404879/