MPGs - Many People Griping - A Foundational Knowledge Primer To Assist in Better Efficiency

[GrayBeard]

I think it’s also worth noting that the old adage “What gets measured, gets managed” applies here. One of my default dash views is to have the electric boost on one side and the turbo boost on the other because there are times when you don’t even need to be in boost to maintain a steady speed that the engine is in the boost and you wouldn’t know unless you can see it and back off for a second and see the turbo boost drop and steady speeds able to be maintained easily.

It’s also useful because watching the gauges for some period as you drive helps to calibrate pedal pressure and learn some less intuitive things if coming from a non hybrid… such as sometimes a quicker but somewhat shallow jab of the pedal results in the electric boost kicking in fully vs the turbo because its ability to kick in is immediate vs having to spool up. So it sort of runs counter to driving super steady and smoothly but figuring out the right amount of pressure to elicit that electric motor boost in place of gas turbo boost becomes somewhat intuitive after a while. It’s fun to figure out how to drive it and experience all the mid-range torque on tap constantly and also see your mileage increase.

I’m new to LC and hybrids. We (my wife primarily drives this car) are getting terrible MPG (like 15 mpg) so I figured we must be doing something wrong.

So here is first thing that caught my eye reading your informative post. Our LC rarely uses the electric motor. I cannot drive over 5 mph before the engine starts. So I came to the conclusion that the electric motor was only for Offroad/rock crawling.

So what do we need to do different or what are we doing wrong. We’ve read the OM a fair amount, as there is just a lotta cosmic stuff in this car. But apparently we can’t even get the basics correct.

Thanks

I can tell you what I do. First, I use ECO mode exclusively. This is not because I am some sort of eco-warrior. ECO mode reduces throttle sensitivity, allowing your right foot to finesse the switching between gas, electric and turbo activation. In ECO mode the engine shifts into coasting mode (I.e. engine off) pretty much every chance it gets. If you maintain very light pressure on the pedal the vehicle will reactivate the gas engine when needed to maintain speed, but will operate at relatively low rpm’s. This is the formula for highest gas mileage. You can always apply the gas more forcefully to activate the turbo (e.g. to pass or go up a steep hill) but doing this a lot will kill the mileage. I also tend not to overbrake or brake unnecessarily. In addition, it helps if a lot of your driving is on back roads with no stoplights and moderate speeds.

So I've been using ECO for the last three tanks of gas (closing in on 1,000 miles) and kept my driving routes / times the same.

My per tank average has climbed from about 22 to 24 MPG, my vehicle average (I have about 5.5K total) is up to 22.6 MPG, and my absolute best drive of more than a couple miles (23 miles in this case) got 29 MPG, though admittedly there was essentially zero traffic and I hit every light.

BUT...I've also noticed that even a short stretch of having to use throttle aggressively to get around traffic, or stop and go that isn't a crawl (like light to light for more than a block) destroys the gas mileage, even if you then have a longer stretch of good conditions.

Also as said above, ECO does not prevent a hard acceleration when needed.

So at the end of the day, I do believe you can get 29 MPG out of an LC; IF you're on flat terrain, can maintain speeds keeping RPMs below 2K, and don't use hard acceleration. But given that it's almost a rectangle on wheels, I'll take that.

I also tried COSmurf's technique of using sharp shallow throttle movements to get max electric boost; I'm not very good at it yet. I'm getting pretty consistent max electric boost (which I rarely see otherwise) but am not good at modulating the throttle to avoid getting turbo boost yet.

I don't intend to drive this way all the time necessarily, but I do enjoy exploring the limits of the car's capability so I have all the tools in my kit so to speak. If I'm ever in a situation where I find myself further between gas stations than I thought, or a long trip in which money is more important than time, I know how to maximize the vehicles capabilities.

 

[BlueCruiser]

The key to getting the most fuel efficiency out of the LC is to drive like a fighter pilot.

No, I don't mean like Tom Cruise kicking in the after burners in Top Gun. I mean consider the principles of energy management. If fighter pilots want to live long, they are always thinking about how much energy they need to add, subtract, or keep in reserve to fly their maneuvers.

IMHO the Toyota designers of this hybrid system are brilliant. They know land drivers tend to over accellerate to get up to speed, waste gas while cruising with lots of throttle intervention, and break too hard to shed energy.

So they gave us a battery to supplement a high torque start, nudge us along at cruise, and capture energy when stopping. If you think about it that way you will quickly realize how much energy you have been wasting and how to leverage the battery to extend your miles in our world. Accelerate, maintain, deccelerate.

Of course, another advantage of the hybrid is that the battery energy reserve is also there for high energy maneuvers. If MPGs are not the objective, you can always put it in sport mode and have some fun!

 

[aggiejet]

The key to getting the most fuel efficiency out of the LC is to drive like a fighter pilot.

No, I don't mean like Tom Cruise kicking in the after burners in Top Gun. I mean consider the principles of energy management. If fighter pilots want to live long, they are always thinking about how much energy they need to add, subtract, or keep in reserve to fly their maneuvers.

IMHO the Toyota designers of this hybrid system are brilliant. They know land drivers tend to over accellerate to get up to speed, waste gas while cruising with lots of throttle intervention, and break too hard to shed energy.

So they gave us a battery to supplement a high torque start, nudge us along at cruise, and capture energy when stopping. If you think about it that way you will quickly realize how much energy you have been wasting and how to leverage the battery to extend your miles in our world. Accelerate, maintain, deccelerate.

Of course, another advantage of the hybrid is that the battery energy reserve is also there for high energy maneuvers. If MPGs are not the objective, you can always put it in sport mode and have some fun!

“I feel the need, the need for speed” Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

In your previous post I believe you stated the LC will use the motor below 15 mph but the info Yanu posted for me to read gives me a different impression. The motor helps “launch” the LC and then the engine takes over.

I definitely drive with RPM targets and not drive too aggressively.

I need to figure out how to get my instrument cluster to show me the motor “in use” indications. I’m pretty sure I have the turbo gauge in view.

And finally, the average mpg indicated now is 18.0. I think that is because I drove it back and forth to airport a couple of times (25 miles round trip, mostly 4 lane) using the aforementioned rpm targets. The other driver in the family, who does the bulk of LC operations, is not so pedal conscious.

 

[EOD Guy]

I need to figure out how to get my instrument cluster to show me the motor “in use” indications. I’m pretty sure I have the turbo gauge in view.

I use the Tach........

 

[HammerTheWall]

I use the Tach........

Same here...I watch the tach pretty regularly to see where I'm at and when the ICE is on or off.

 

[TakaraLC]

This is the screen layout I use.

 

[COSmurf]

So I've been using ECO for the last three tanks of gas (closing in on 1,000 miles) and kept my driving routes / times the same.

My per tank average has climbed from about 22 to 24 MPG, my vehicle average (I have about 5.5K total) is up to 22.6 MPG, and my absolute best drive of more than a couple miles (23 miles in this case) got 29 MPG, though admittedly there was essentially zero traffic and I hit every light.

BUT...I've also noticed that even a short stretch of having to use throttle aggressively to get around traffic, or stop and go that isn't a crawl (like light to light for more than a block) destroys the gas mileage, even if you then have a longer stretch of good conditions.

Also as said above, ECO does not prevent a hard acceleration when needed.

So at the end of the day, I do believe you can get 29 MPG out of an LC; IF you're on flat terrain, can maintain speeds keeping RPMs below 2K, and don't use hard acceleration. But given that it's almost a rectangle on wheels, I'll take that.

I also tried COSmurf's technique of using sharp shallow throttle movements to get max electric boost; I'm not very good at it yet. I'm getting pretty consistent max electric boost (which I rarely see otherwise) but am not good at modulating the throttle to avoid getting turbo boost yet.

I don't intend to drive this way all the time necessarily, but I do enjoy exploring the limits of the car's capability so I have all the tools in my kit so to speak. If I'm ever in a situation where I find myself further between gas stations than I thought, or a long trip in which money is more important than time, I know how to maximize the vehicles capabilities.

I’m very happy you’re finding this stuff helpful. Regarding the throttle modulation, I kind of do the sharp but shallow-ish or medium push throttle to get full electric boost and then back off of it more gradually when I’m doing city driving where there is more light to light driving. It’s almost like you pulse the pedal but back off as turbo boost starts spooling up unless you need to keep accelerating hard. In city driving I find I’m not usually on throttle for long periods of time and I believe this is what is described in prior posts as Pulse and Glide by BlueCruiser who must be an absolute pro at hybrid driving. This is my very first hybrid and I can’t get 29 MPGs like he seems to be able to get reasonably consistently. I get about 23 MPGs in the city when I mess around with this stuff and am not in a hurry or rush to get somewhere. That’s insane to me… I could get 21-22 MPGs on a super flat highway at steady speed without any brake use in my 4Runner if all conditions were perfect and here I am in my LC getting 23 MPGs with much heavier and 1” larger diameter tires in stop and go city driving!

By no means do I always drive this way but it’s kinda fun to know if I need to extend my tank range or just am not in a hurry this car is capable of getting really good (relative) mileage.

Here I am city driving at 40 MPH with engine off and just electric boost gauge showing assist.

 

[l00semarble]

Okay here's an interesting piece of information to add to this issue. I decided to let my tank run down past indicated empty and indicated zero range. I drove maybe another 20 to 25 miles but I didn't keep track of it exactly because I didn't notice exactly when the gauge went to zero.

But the point is I drove it for a while after empty and then just now I brimmed the tank until it's splashed out and put over 19 gallons in assuming I can trust a regulated/ inspected pump.

I usually pump in about 15 gallons if I'm down near empty so this extra reserve in the tank is significant. Also seem surprising that they rate the tank 17.9 but I got over a gallon more than that. I guess some is in the filler neck but still seems like a big discrepancy.

 

[Sugarloafer80]

Now that's what I like to hear!!! 19x23=437!!! It seems everyone is putting in huge reserves these days and capacity is based on first click off of the pump. My Stelvio, like clockwork takes another 1.5 gallons after initial shut off.....go beyond 1.5gallon and it is stuffed pretty quick. That extra 20-25 miles was that extra 1.1+ gallon. NOw how is brave enough to suck the car dry? Do I hear 19.5???!!!

 

[l00semarble]

Now that's what I like to hear!!! 19x23=437!!! It seems everyone is putting in huge reserves these days and capacity is based on first click off of the pump. My Stelvio, like clockwork takes another 1.5 gallons after initial shut off.....go beyond 1.5gallon and it is stuffed pretty quick. That extra 20-25 miles was that extra 1.1+ gallon. NOw how is brave enough to suck the car dry? Do I hear 19.5???!!!

But I get about 15-16mpg (RTT and 285/70 AT tires ) so I'm still under 300 miles of range. My wife's electric Hyundai has more range. I would like 400mi but that is not happening.

 

[Sugarloafer80]

Not responsible for you running highly inefficient rubber. Not sure why you off roader types don't just mount up your hardcore rubber for the off road work..like we track guys do with our slicks. Takes 15 minutes to switch over. I know, I know, its all about the LOOK! But at expense of wet weather traction, noise, etc. Nothing worse than a 50+-75% worn off road tire with no sipes.

 

[jayce]

Part of the problem is that the off-road wheels+tires weigh 70 or more pounds apiece. I used to do the track wheel swap like you describe. Not so easy with the LC.

 

[Sugarloafer80]

I change 22's on my RR all the time with 275/40R22s. RR wheels are notoriously heavy. There are also lift assists. There is also technique where you only need to lift a wheel 1 inch. It seems many of the same people complaining about mileage have put these big heavy setups on that kill everything else. Just playing devil's advocate.

 

[l00semarble]

Not responsible for you running highly inefficient rubber. Not sure why you off roader types don't just mount up your hardcore rubber for the off road work..like we track guys do with our slicks. Takes 15 minutes to switch over. I know, I know, its all about the LOOK! But at expense of wet weather traction, noise, etc. Nothing worse than a 50+-75% worn off road tire with no sipes.

I feel like this overlooks the whole value proposition/concept of a Land Cruiser. Some of us like to explore and any way you cut it we use long stretches of pavement to get to cool places. Carrying a full 2nd set of wheels/tires in/on the vehicle is just not practical. AT tires have come a long way and work quite well for combination driving with some acceptable tradeoffs. Unless your rig is only an offroad rig and goes places on a trailer swapping tires at the edge of the pavement does not make practical sense.

 

[RideWithYanu]

I feel like this overlooks the whole value proposition/concept of a Land Cruiser. Some of us like to explore and any way you cut it we use long stretches of pavement to get to cool places. Carrying a full 2nd set of wheels/tires in/on the vehicle is just not practical. AT tires have come a long way and work quite well for combination driving with some acceptable tradeoffs. Unless your rig is only an offroad rig and goes places on a trailer swapping tires at the edge of the pavement does not make practical sense.

Yeah that’s a silly notion unless it’s a trailered rock crawler-type situation. In which case, I’d question the J250 as the vehicle of choice.

I’m off roading my daily driver J250 2-3 times a week - there’s no way I’m swapping wheel sets . But I’m also not complaining about MPG. I simply don’t care much about it.

 

[imann777]

Ok just to settle the dust on the Fuel tank conversation on LC250, here is the brief synopsis on the LC 250 Fuel Tank and Low Level Fuel Warning Light and its related capacity.
1. Vehicle without Sub Fuel tank indicates the remaining fuel is approximately 14.6L ( 3.8US Gal)or when Fuel low level warning Light On
2. Vehicle with Sub Fuel Tank ( if equipped) Most Middle East Model & China and Africa have this equipped, Indicates that remaining fuel is approximately 22.5L( 5.9US Gal or less if the light comes on

Now here is the other Fuel Warning Light,( Buzzer) sometime may come up, if the amount of accumulated water in the fuel filter has reached the specified level or if the light flashes ,in then it maybe also the Fuel System .

The T24A-FTS engine uses a direct injection 4 stroke gasoline engine superior version with Turbo (D4ST) system which has both direct and port type fuel injection. Fuel sent from the fuel pump ( for low pressure side) in teh fuel assembly is delivered to the low pressure and high pressure fuel systems. The fuel delivered to the low pressure fuel system is injected from the port fuel injector assy to the intake port. The fuel delivered to the high pressure fuel system is pressurized by the fuel ( engine room side) pump assy for high pressure side and injected from the DFI ( direct fuel injector ) assy to the combustion chamber.

1. Models equipped with a 80 Litres ( 84..5 US qts, 70.4 Imp qts)capacity "RESIN Fuel Tank assy ( Models with Single Tank)
2. Model equipped with Dual Tank (Main Tank 80 Litres ( 84..5 US qts, 70.4 Imp qts)capacity "RESIN Fuel Tank assy and a 30 Litres ( 31.7US qts, 26.4 Imp qts) capacity resin fuel sub tank assy
3. By using a resin fuel tank assembly, weight reduction has been achieved.
4. A quick connector is used at each connection of the fuel pipes in consideration of serviceability and reducing the number of perils.
5. A center direct injection system with the direct fuel injector assemblies and fuel delivery pipe sub assembly ( for direct injection) located on top of engine is used.
6. A fuel returnless system is used for low pressure fuel control and is performed by the fuel suction tube with pump and gauge assy and fuel main valve assy.
7. High Pressure fuel system control is performed by the fuel( Engine room side) pump assy ( for high pressure side) and the spill control valve.
8. A fuel leak prevention is installed which turns off the fuel pump ( low pressure side) during collision, when the airbag if deployed occurs is used ensuring safety.
9. Most of the Duel fuel tanks models uses Jet Pump. This is unlike any model Toyota has done before. Because the Fuel tanks are positioned on either side of the chassis on the same level , that is why the jet pump has been provided to transfer the fuel from Fuel sub tank assy to the main fuel tank . This is accomplished for utilizing the flow of the fuel through the jet pump so that the pressure difference, which is created by the fuel as it passes through the venturi is used to suck the fuel out of sub tank.

Hope this clarifies the knowledge to all

 

[Doggman1525]

Yeah that’s a silly notion unless it’s a trailered rock crawler-type situation. In which case, I’d question the J250 as the vehicle of choice.

I’m off roading my daily driver J250 2-3 times a week - there’s no way I’m swapping wheel sets . But I’m also not complaining about MPG. I simply don’t care much about it.

Agreed, if you have a lifestyle that affords opportunities to recreate like this throughout the week it wouldn't make much sense but for the weekend warriors among us swapping tires Friday night for a couple of days of running trails and camping then back on with the street shoes Sunday night in prep for the work week isn't entirely ridiculous - if (big if) you have the storage space, the right tools and perhaps a spare teenager dumb enough to say "I'm bored" to your face and therefore clearly in need of being given more chores, it's like a 10 minute job to swap wheels.

 

[teghogh]

Now that's what I like to hear!!! 19x23=437!!! It seems everyone is putting in huge reserves these days and capacity is based on first click off of the pump. My Stelvio, like clockwork takes another 1.5 gallons after initial shut off.....go beyond 1.5gallon and it is stuffed pretty quick. That extra 20-25 miles was that extra 1.1+ gallon. NOw how is brave enough to suck the car dry? Do I hear 19.5???!!!

Do you really want to drive on reserve with no idea of when it will run out ? Similar to ev anxiety. Not to mention it is bad for the fuel pump

 

[ultane]

Okay here's an interesting piece of information to add to this issue. I decided to let my tank run down past indicated empty and indicated zero range. I drove maybe another 20 to 25 miles but I didn't keep track of it exactly because I didn't notice exactly when the gauge went to zero.

But the point is I drove it for a while after empty and then just now I brimmed the tank until it's splashed out and put over 19 gallons in assuming I can trust a regulated/ inspected pump.

I usually pump in about 15 gallons if I'm down near empty so this extra reserve in the tank is significant. Also seem surprising that they rate the tank 17.9 but I got over a gallon more than that. I guess some is in the filler neck but still seems like a big discrepancy.

View attachment 44539

As I have mentioned several times in the past, The Car Care Nut warns NOT to add gasoline after the gas pump shuts off the FIRST TIME. Otherwise you will fill the charcoal canister with gasoline, which ruins it. They are NOT cheap to buy, and NOT cheap to replace. (DAMHIKT)

 

[ultane]

I drive my GF from Cherokee County NC to Murfreesboro Tenn today. 45 to 55 mph on two lane highways, 60 mph on the interstates, and Miss Daisy got 30.2 mph on the interstate, but buy the time I got to the Dr.’s Office, it had dropped to 30.0 mpg.

Stock Michelin’s at 33 psi, Eco mode, & 93 octane E0 fuel.