Has anyone used snow chains?

[Sugarloafer80]

No sir. Studs on all 4 tires. Front tires with studs will steer a little better on the greased lightening than even the best TRUE snows. It is a fine line in the sand but having been in plenty of studded friends vehicles over the years, the only reason I don't run them is the 373 mile trip and the singing studs! Around the mountain with its daily conditions variables, it will have its advantages..say morning after a warm front came thru and glazed everything...and the driveway has not been sanded.
That day I was helping folks with my tractor last December, the only guy that fearlessly went up the hill successfully was a Subaru Outback with 4 studded snows and full commitment! None of the pickups made it, even my buddies 2500 with 4 studded snows!!!! His plow was his emergency brake! The one idiot I saw running all seasons that drove by me , made it 100yds and looped all the way back down almost taking out my tractor. Dumbass vacationer...I yelled at his ass big time!!!!! It was so bad, it took me 5 minutes to get out of the tractor and walk less than 10ft to hook up my tow chain to drag out a truck.....yea it is pretty fun dragging big manly pickups around with a B series Kubota...Notice, not even an LX, L etc! Good discussion. Toyota just doesn't want to take any liability on the issue...nor should they. Never run chains up front of a 4WD unless you want to pop a front differential. There is already a lot more weight over those wheels. After that day and the steering issues with my Kubota, I was thinking about some front chains and quickly got corrected by everyone with experience and knowledge about tractors! Cuse the aside but it all intertwines.

Don't bother carrying chains unless you practice every year doing a roadside install. Cold hands , slush, wind etc will make it a miserable job even if you are skilled. If you ever installed a set of Norwegian Tryggs, you can consider yourself skilled...Same chains loggers run on their Skidders!

Currently, the only non dedicated set of snows with M&S designation I have run that are capable are the Pirelli P7Cinturatos on my little Fiat 500e. But after 2 seasons, I am hooked up with snows this year. Pushed my luck enough pushing snow over the hood last winter...no joke...hysterical.

 

[Altitude]

Yeah, well. In 2026 Colorado if you buy studded tires you’ll tear them up along with the roads as you drive around Denver on sunny 40 degree days. I envision those idyllic winter scenes where people north of the Arctic circle see nothing but white roads from November to May. Here, we mainly prepare for storms, not the periods between them.

 

[D-mac]

Yeah, well. In 2026 Colorado if you buy studded tires you’ll tear them up along with the roads as you drive around Denver on sunny 40 degree days. I envision those idyllic winter scenes where people north of the Arctic circle see nothing but white roads from November to May. Here, we mainly prepare for storms, not the periods between them.

It's common to see studded tires used all year round in mountain communities, just like the tourists that chain up when it's wintertime but clear and dry. Enforcement of these things is probably lax, and some drivers must enjoy the extra vibrations!

 

[sideshow06]

My understanding was that the M+S (mud & snow) designation was the one based simply on the void ratio, but that three peak tires also used compounds that were a bit less likely to harden up in below 40-degree temps. But I do understand that in either case they're not the same as true snow tires. The stock Michelins are M+S.

I guess a question I still have - which, respectfully, I'm not feeling like anyone here is entirely capable of answering - is WHY Toyota says "no chains" on the LC with a 165/70-18R configuration in the first place? As I mentioned earlier, the back wheels have TONS of clearance (more than my RAV that I've used chains with), and I just can't see any typical chains having rubbing issues. And FWIW, cables really aren't that much lower-profile.

It sounds like some of you actually have experience driving the LC250 with actual chains in extreme circumstances (which, as I said, is all I'm preparing for). Any issues when you actually ran them? Is Toyota just covering it's ass, or are there real concerns about equipping them (aside from feelings of inadequacy).

 

[Altitude]

My understanding was that the M+S (mud & snow) designation was the one based simply on the void ratio, but that three peak tires also used compounds that were a bit less likely to harden up in below 40-degree temps.

It would vary by manufacturer, but AFAIK the designation is solely about the tread void.

I think Nokian, for example, is experimenting with alternate rubber compounds actively.

 

[Altitude]

It would vary by manufacturer, but AFAIK the designation is solely about the tread void.

I think Nokian, for example, is experimenting with alternate rubber compounds actively.

So - I was wrong about this. Let me post the correction. Here are the actual criteria for 3PMS designation:

1. Be tested on medium-packed snow using the standardized ASTM F1805 snow-traction procedure.
2. Be compared against a designated Standard Reference Test Tire (SRTT).
3. Achieve a minimum traction index of 110 relative to the reference tire under the traditional test methodology. USTMA’s severe-snow definition specifies ≥110.

Apparently the outcome of “10% better traction in snow” is the important lever; there seems to be no specification as to how.

But 10% isn’t much.

 

[sideshow06]

Wow, no one is ever wrong on a message forum. Lol. Thanks for the correction.

Now that you say that, that does sound familiar. It's not the rubber compound but how it does in a traction test. Thanks for the clarification!

And yeah, 10% is better than nothing, but still not a true "snow" tire.

 

[D-mac]

1. Be tested on medium-packed snow using the standardized ASTM F1805 snow-traction procedure.
2. Be compared against a designated Standard Reference Test Tire (SRTT).
3. Achieve a minimum traction index of 110 relative to the reference tire under the traditional test methodology. USTMA’s severe-snow definition specifies ≥110.

Some will agree the 3PMS mark is not very meaningful, because the standard reference test tire is a P225/60R-16 tire that is smaller than modern tires used on SUVs. Probably why some tire mfgs don't bother to test/mark their tires with the snowflake.

 

[RideWithYanu]

No tire is a snow tire unless it’s actually a snow tire. 3PMSF is a good indicator that an A/T tire is better than others in winter conditions, but it’ll never touch what an actual snow tire is capable of for on-road driving.

 

[Mtn40]

To add another note the which end should have chains or studs or whatever traction aid.
If it's for on-road use, you don't want the extra traction on the front only. You want the front to lose traction first if you're going to lose traction. This is why your factory brakes are setup so if you slam on the brakes, the front will lock up first. Try it in gravel and see.
If the rear loses traction first you're going to be in a spin before you know it.
Rear only obviously doesn't help a lot if you have a front wheel drive vehicle, so all four wheels is best.

Off-road, when I go snow wheeling (this is with my 40), I do put the chains on the front though. They're there to pull me forward and help steer. I only put chains on the back if needed, which has so far been never.

 

[sideshow06]

I had been taught (as a young lad growing up on the east coast) chains on front for FWD and AWD (for better control/steering), and on the back for RWD (for traction on the drive wheels). I've never had to equip all 4 wheels. I was leaning towards rear for the LC for clearance reasons (just in case Toyota actually has a point), but I'll admit I'm more confused now than I was before this thread. Seems to be a subject for which everyone believes themselves to be their own expert.

 

[Mtn40]

I think people tend to focus too much on going and not enough on steering and stopping. I think that's where the idea to put the traction aids on the drive wheels comes from.

I wouldn't call myself an expert, but a guy once told me he was putting snow tires just on the front of his front-wheel-drive car because he didn't want to buy four tires. I didn't know him that well at the time so I kept my "opinion" to myself.
I talked to him later and he told me not long after he got his snow tires just on the front, he'd touched the brakes on ice and done a 540 on the freeway into the guard rail going 50. Fortunately no one was hurt and it was a single-car incident or I would have felt way worse about not saying something before.

 

[RideWithYanu]

I wouldn’t consider myself an expert either. Experienced, yes, but not an expert. For all I know I’m still on that first rise of the Dunning-Kruger scale.

I have learned very much from several teachers on these forums - because I know I’m not an expert.