Longevity of 2024+ LC

[Marinna]

They did put the 3.4L V6TT into the LX600, their flagship of flagship vehicles. Reports of many LX600 engines self-destructing now, despite being a very low volume seller.

I guess the only thing I tried to talk sense to myself is that they already screw up Tundra, Sequoia, LX600, and possible GX550. If this V4 also shows similar signs of pre-mature engine failures, that would further add Land Cruiser, 2025+ 4Runner, Tacoma, and the rumored baby version of Land Cruiser. That will be enough to send Toyota into a deep hole they will not recover.

 

[lunkerbuster808]

Just got back from japan ....like 10 mins ago....I just wanted to say i rode with family and friends for two weeks mostly all hybrids engines and saw so much hybrid engines everywhere I was blow away. All the major brands toyota lexus Honda Nissan etc. I thnk all this internet hate on hybrids is just silly. I feel much better about my one day purchase.....

 

[Trailman]

I guess the only thing I tried to talk sense to myself is that they already screw up Tundra, Sequoia, LX600, and possible GX550. If this V4 also shows similar signs of pre-mature engine failures, that would further add Land Cruiser, 2025+ 4Runner, Tacoma, and the rumored baby version of Land Cruiser. That will be enough to send Toyota into a deep hole they will not recover.

One of the best ways to make yourself feel confident about your vehicle getting you somewhere and back is to personally learn how it works and do maintenance items on it yourself. Vehicles didn’t use to come with engine covers and consumers became intimidated from working on vehicles when manufacturers added them on. I try to do as much maintenance and repairs as I can on my own. Once these vehicles have been out for a couple of years and routine maintenance is needed on them, you’ll begin to see more and more YouTube videos walking you through how to maintain the vehicle and fix things.

If you have a garage and place to work on your vehicle, it’s amazing how much you can do with a floor jack, some jack stands and a decent ratchet set. Get a torque wrench and learn how to tighten bolts back to spec. Change your oil, change break pads (this isn’t difficult on most vehicles and looks to be relatively simple on the new LC). Replace spark plugs (and ignition coils when needed) (easy access to 4 on top of the inline 4 cylinder on the LC 250). The V-6 on the GX 550 will be more difficult to access and time consuming.

When I first saw the LC250 didn’t have an engine cover and everything was beautifully laid out with relatively easy access to get to, my first thought was, this is going to be nice to not have to remove an engine cover and more efficient to work on.

 

[qberg]

It's hard to imagine something like that getting through quality control during testing

You have to remember that humans are the ones carrying out the process. The design can be fine, the tooling can be fine, the process can be fine. All it takes is for someone to not do their job... messing up periodic maintenance, someone not understanding the way that something is supposed to go together, etc. After 18 years in manufacturing as a production and quality engineer, it is kind of amazing that anything comes off the line completely correct because there are so many failure modes. It just takes 1 person in the organization not doing their job right... whether that job be writing the work instruction, delivering the component to the line, adjusting the assembly jig that is used during installation of the thing, maintaining the jig in the next process that touches the thing that is already installed.

FWIW, the CarCareNut thinks it is a good engine, a derivative, not an entirely new design. He also reports the wastegate is vacuum operated, not electronically, a good thing. I also worry a bit about the transfer case, as it appears new to some degree. It has been reported the drive chain (why not gears?) is heavier duty than in the past.

The car care nut, as usual, takes a complex problem and reduces it to youtube consumption.

The wastegate assembly on the V35 is an electronic device that push/pulls a linkage that pivots the wastegate valve. The issue wasn't the electronic part but the mechanical linkage binding.

The T24 uses a vacuum to push pull the linkage instead of an electronic device. That vacuum pressure is controlled, though, by an electronic vacuum regulating valve (essentially a solenoid that limits the vacuum pressure to the accumulator that pushes/pulls the arm in the linkage that has its own failure modes).

So, the failure mode in the V35 (bound linkage) also exists in the T24. The turbos themselves are different, so it comes down to how well the linkage was designed/manufactured by Toyota or the supplier for the T24 turbo and if they learned lessons from the V35 turbo. It could be wear (material and spec of the pivot) or environmental issues (road salt, debris able to get to the pivots).

Toyota has used chain driven transfer cases forever. The 200 series land cruiser used a chain driven transfer case.

 

[EOD Guy]

Not trying to offend anyone, but some of ya'll crack me up.

 

[qberg]

I guess the only thing I tried to talk sense to myself is that they already screw up Tundra, Sequoia, LX600, and possible GX550. If this V4 also shows similar signs of pre-mature engine failures, that would further add Land Cruiser, 2025+ 4Runner, Tacoma, and the rumored baby version of Land Cruiser. That will be enough to send Toyota into a deep hole they will not recover.

You do know that there are literally hundreds of thousands of Tundra, Sequoia, and LX buyers out there with V35s that have no issue, right? Toyota isn't hauling every single one of them back.

IMO, no one can tell you if the new Land Cruiser will be reliable or not. We can assume that Toyota didn't change their validation process, but every validation process has some blind spots. Something happened on the V35 that is widespread enough that Toyota wants to inspect about 1/5 of what they have built so far. Some portion of those -- again, we don't know how many -- will need engines replaced. That something was a blind spot in verifying the design or the manufacturing. Again, we don't know because Toyota hasn't publicly released that information.

If you are looking for a guarantee of a known quantity, you should buy an old model with a track record. But, guess what, that isn't a guarantee, either. There are 5.7L Tundras that have puked their conrods out the side of the block. Same with the 4.0L 4Runner. In general, they have a great track record, but that isn't a guarantee. It just takes someone making a mistake on your particular engine for it to be a problem. That's the joy of mass production manufacturing. They are all basically the same, but they are all a little different.

Unless the engineers that designed and evaluated the new engines come in here and decide to spill the tea on these new engines, everything is speculation and conjecture. No one here is expert enough to say with any confidence that anything will be trouble free. As I said above, even the best engines have some that are bad and they are bad for a variety of reasons. Buying a new product is always some level of risk. It comes down to if the manufacturer stands behind the product and makes it right.

 

[EOD Guy]

Marinna,
The best advice I can give you......... Do your research and make your decision on what you feel comfortable with. Everyone one this forum, including me, has their opinion, some opinions are based on experience, knowledge, tried and true repair procedures and the school of hard knocks . Some are based on what they have read on the internet and that one time they successfully changed their oil with the help of a friend.

Never, ever take a single opinion from this forum or any other source and take it as gospel........ always seek out other sources/opinions and confirm or disprove what was presented as factual (which I believe you were doing when you originally posted). Weed out the "oil changers" and go with your gut.

(edit) Example ......Tundra's comment below is based off of actual knowledge of the situation and I put more stock in his opinion, than the "oil changers".

 

[wedemmoez]

The GX550 has a V6 that currently is known to stop working in other vehicles carrying the same engine. Toyota has recalled a certain number of those vehicles but it's known that there are models produced in 2024 that have failed as well that have not been recalled yet. Only time will give the definitive answer. Just trying to give you honest opinions based on facts and you seem worried about how it looks vs how it is actually going to function.

Just to add facts as a TMNA employee -

2022-2023 Tundras and sequoias with the non-hybrid version of this engine have a recall notice. Approx 100k vehicles, but only 824 (to date) have experienced failures. This does not apply to hybrid or 2024 models. The manufacturing process flaw was corrected and the failures shouldn't affect models built after mid-2023 (don't know the exact cutoff date). EDIT - Production correction was made November 2022.

Less than 1% of vehicles are affected, and those that are, have been replaced under warranty and the powertrain warranty extended to 10/100k. Not enough failures for Toyota to issue a mass recall and replace engines like Hyundia/Kia had to with transmissions, but enough that we've come up with processes for replacement and keep updating docs/instructions in TIS as needed.

Currently the short block replacement is the best solution since the head and accessories aren't affected by the debris.

 

[wedemmoez]

I guess the only thing I tried to talk sense to myself is that they already screw up Tundra, Sequoia, LX600, and possible GX550. If this V4 also shows similar signs of pre-mature engine failures, that would further add Land Cruiser, 2025+ 4Runner, Tacoma, and the rumored baby version of Land Cruiser. That will be enough to send Toyota into a deep hole they will not recover.

Because of how this recall has been reported, many people are thinking this affects every single GX/LX/Tundra/Sequoia.
Less than 1000 vehicles total are affected, of over 150k sold. Statistically, you're more likely to get into a car accident than have any sort of engine failure while driving a GX/LX/Tundra/Sequoia.

 

[agjake01]

Just to add facts as a TMNA employee -

2022-2023 Tundras and sequoias with the non-hybrid version of this engine have a recall notice. Approx 100k vehicles, but only 824 (to date) have experienced failures. This does not apply to hybrid or 2024 models. The manufacturing process flaw was corrected and the failures shouldn't affect models built after mid-2023 (don't know the exact cutoff date).

Less than 1% of vehicles are affected, and those that are, have been replaced under warranty and the powertrain warranty extended to 10/100k. Not enough failures for Toyota to issue a mass recall and replace engines like Hyundia/Kia had to with transmissions, but enough that we've come up with processes for replacement and keep updating docs/instructions in TIS as needed.

Currently the short block replacement is the best solution since the head and accessories aren't affected by the debris.

So inside baseball - when are they clearing the QC hold??

 

[wedemmoez]

So inside baseball - when are they clearing the QC hold??

Haha I was on the Tundra project which is the only reason I know some of this.

LC logistics and info is all a mystery to me

 

[Marinna]

Just to add facts as a TMNA employee -

2022-2023 Tundras and sequoias with the non-hybrid version of this engine have a recall notice. Approx 100k vehicles, but only 824 (to date) have experienced failures. This does not apply to hybrid or 2024 models. The manufacturing process flaw was corrected and the failures shouldn't affect models built after mid-2023 (don't know the exact cutoff date).

Less than 1% of vehicles are affected, and those that are, have been replaced under warranty and the powertrain warranty extended to 10/100k. Not enough failures for Toyota to issue a mass recall and replace engines like Hyundia/Kia had to with transmissions, but enough that we've come up with processes for replacement and keep updating docs/instructions in TIS as needed.

Currently the short block replacement is the best solution since the head and accessories aren't affected by the debris.

I did three hours research yesterday and this aligns with my impression. The part many people can't accept it is that you have 1% of failure rate on the most valuable part of the vehicle. I do not think 1% is something one can down-played for this issue. After all this is Toyota we are talking about, not GM or Ford. Customers come to them for reliability.

To understand this issue technically I found a nice video that has detailed explanation of what happened. (I don't like the way he talked but the content is good) This is one of the reasons I started this thread. If Tundra engine is not new, and yet we still see this problem, then it worried me that what happened to Toyota to allow this oversight to happen on an established process. Perhaps you have some insights to share? Obviously their QC seems to really cause issue to happened at the delivered vehicle.

 

[wedemmoez]

I did three hours research yesterday and this aligns with my impression. The part many people can't accept it is that you have 1% of failure rate on the most valuable part of the vehicle. I do not think 1% is something one can down-played for this issue. After all this is Toyota we are talking about, not GM or Ford. Customers come to them for reliability.

To understand this issue technically I found a nice video that has detailed explanation of what happened. (I don't like the way he talked but the content is good) This is one of the reasons I started this thread. If Tundra engine is not new, and yet we still see this problem, then it worried me that what happened to Toyota to allow this oversight to happen on an established process. Perhaps you have some insights to share? Obviously their QC seems to really cause issue to happened at the delivered vehicle.

I'm not allowed to talk specifics, but the engine's design is not the problem. We had no issues with this same engine in use in the LC sedans.

There was a change made in the manufacturing process when we started building them for Tundra/Sequoia that passed all of our initial preprod testing, but introduced issues when scaled up for mass manufacturing that we were not able to predict or model. The manufacturing process was changed again, and our at-scale testing shows there is no longer machining debris in the assembled engines.

Scaling up manufacturing from pilot plants to full scale usually always introduces issues. Most of the time they're tiny enough that it doesn't make a difference, but sometimes they snowball into larger issues.

Edit- also to add, a sub 1% failure rate is PHENOMENAL in the auto industry, especially for an automaker that makes 3x the vehicles as the next largest manufacturer. Ford's 2.7 ecoboost had a 4% failure rate in the first year of production and still sits around 2% across all models. GM's Pentastar V6 has sat at a 3% failure rate since their introduction.

Toyota is known for reliability, but not perfection. Across statistical averages, toyota is significantly better than most other automakers, but we still have our issues sometimes

 

[Marinna]

I'm not allowed to talk specifics, but the engine's design is not the problem. We had no issues with this same engine in use in the LC sedans.

There was a change made in the manufacturing process when we started building them for Tundra/Sequoia that passed all of our initial preprod testing, but introduced issues when scaled up for mass manufacturing that we were not able to predict or model. The manufacturing process was changed again, and our at-scale testing shows there is no longer machining debris in the assembled engines.

Scaling up manufacturing from pilot plants to full scale usually always introduces issues. Most of the time they're tiny enough that it doesn't make a difference, but sometimes they snowball into larger issues.

Edit- also to add, a sub 1% failure rate is PHENOMENAL in the auto industry, especially for an automaker that makes 3x the vehicles as the next largest manufacturer. Ford's 2.7 ecoboost had a 4% failure rate in the first year of production and still sits around 2% across all models. GM's Pentastar V6 has sat at a 3% failure rate since their introduction.

Toyota is known for reliability, but not perfection. Across statistical averages, toyota is significantly better than most other automakers, but we still have our issues sometimes

Thanks for the insights. I participated the design part of process at other makers, but never fully understand the manufacturing/assembly side of story.

 

[LCMud]

I'm not allowed to talk specifics, but the engine's design is not the problem. We had no issues with this same engine in use in the LC sedans.

There was a change made in the manufacturing process when we started building them for Tundra/Sequoia that passed all of our initial preprod testing, but introduced issues when scaled up for mass manufacturing that we were not able to predict or model. The manufacturing process was changed again, and our at-scale testing shows there is no longer machining debris in the assembled engines.

Scaling up manufacturing from pilot plants to full scale usually always introduces issues. Most of the time they're tiny enough that it doesn't make a difference, but sometimes they snowball into larger issues.

Edit- also to add, a sub 1% failure rate is PHENOMENAL in the auto industry, especially for an automaker that makes 3x the vehicles as the next largest manufacturer. Ford's 2.7 ecoboost had a 4% failure rate in the first year of production and still sits around 2% across all models. GM's Pentastar V6 has sat at a 3% failure rate since their introduction.

Toyota is known for reliability, but not perfection. Across statistical averages, toyota is significantly better than most other automakers, but we still have our issues sometimes

Very nice explanation, thanks.
Important point here is no engineering fault on the engine. I’d say the probability is about zero this will be repeated on the LC 4 cylinder or any other Toyota/Lexus engine any time soon.

 

[El Chorizo]

Because of how this recall has been reported, many people are thinking this affects every single GX/LX/Tundra/Sequoia.
Less than 1000 vehicles total are affected, of over 150k sold. Statistically, you're more likely to get into a car accident than have any sort of engine failure while driving a GX/LX/Tundra/Sequoia.

2 excellent posts, thank you for the information.

 

[Travis Takara]

GM's Pentastar V6 has sat at a 3% failure rate since their introduction.

GM does not make the Pentastar.

 

[wedemmoez]

GM does not make the Pentastar.

Oh snap my bad, Stellantis

 

[RUN-8]

I'm not allowed to talk specifics, but the engine's design is not the problem. We had no issues with this same engine in use in the LC sedans.

There was a change made in the manufacturing process when we started building them for Tundra/Sequoia that passed all of our initial preprod testing, but introduced issues when scaled up for mass manufacturing that we were not able to predict or model. The manufacturing process was changed again, and our at-scale testing shows there is no longer machining debris in the assembled engines.

Scaling up manufacturing from pilot plants to full scale usually always introduces issues. Most of the time they're tiny enough that it doesn't make a difference, but sometimes they snowball into larger issues.

Edit- also to add, a sub 1% failure rate is PHENOMENAL in the auto industry, especially for an automaker that makes 3x the vehicles as the next largest manufacturer. Ford's 2.7 ecoboost had a 4% failure rate in the first year of production and still sits around 2% across all models. GM's Pentastar V6 has sat at a 3% failure rate since their introduction.

Toyota is known for reliability, but not perfection. Across statistical averages, toyota is significantly better than most other automakers, but we still have our issues sometimes

I know you can’t disclose it but I would love to know what the source of debris was.

I’m on the Tundra forum, and have followed this closely. My SWAG is a part or assembly from a supplier, but that is just a wild guess.

 

[RUN-8]

Oh snap my bad, Stellantis

In fairness the 3.6L V6 GM makes is probably worse.

Not to mention their AFM V8’s appetite for failed lifters.