Honest LC250 review that goes into more technical details & why Toyota missed the mark on LC250

[Impatient]

It’s all whistling past the graveyard right now. Based on testing it looks like, and I believe Toyota intended, for the LC 250 engine to be optimized for offroad and slower speed torque and to generally be under stressed. That SHOULD lead to longer component life and a durable engine that runs for a very long time with good maintenance. The maintenance requirements are more important than for the old V8 and the repairs, if needed, are more complex. That’s a downside on the trail. But the smaller size and increased torque are upsides. If the drivetrain is close to as durable (and my personal bet is that it is) then this model will be properly viewed as a homerun. But we won’t know for a decade so for now just enjoy it (or don’t).

 

[BlueCruiser]

I don't understand the obsession with track speeds. As I believe Winchester44 already mentioned, Toyota could create a new "Dragster" drive mode that would launch the the hybrid LC off the line like a Tesla but what would be the point of that? I guess it would attract some of those Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk buyers

The good news is the light truck industry has been rapidly reducing the number of cylinders. In the case of Ford, it has gone from 8, to 6, to 4, and now 3 in its light truck/suv engines. In return, we have seen amazing improvements in power and fuel economy. Since 1975, horsepower per displacement has more than tripled (+210%) and at the same time fuel consumption per horsepower has fallen by 70%.

The industry has achieved this amazing success primarily by substituting pistons for turbos. Now, we are seeing the process continue by transitioning to hybrids which offer even more benefits. If the trend continues, after the next million miles you probably won't be able to find a new model truck/suv with a V8 or even V6. And that is a good thing.

So, it turns out there actually is a replacement for displacement. First it was the impeller and now it is a battery.

Americans Buy Ever Bigger, More Powerful, More Fuel-Efficient Trucks, SUVs & Cars. EVs Escalate the Horsepower War | Wolf Street

 

[TakaraLC]

"At the track, the Land Cruiser's 7.7-second romp to 60 mph is neither impressive nor disappointing, but it does trail the more powerful GX550 Overtrail+'s 6.3-second effort. During passing maneuvers, however, the Land Cruiser is a tenth ahead from 30 to 50 mph and only a tenth behind from 50 to 70 mph because the instant-on nature of the hybrid system gets it going immediately, while the GX550's 10-speed automatic sorts itself and kicks down."

Ok, found the quote. a tenth of a second either way is not really substantial. But if I was overtaking a slow vehicle on a 2-lane road, I'd certainly be in the "correct" gear or at least shifting to sport mode before attempting it.

That quote is wrong based on numbers they posted.

LC

GX

 

[Winchester44]

In a million miles, the Hybrid will have replaced the turbo 2-4 times, the hybrid battery 3 times, the electric motor 1+ times, and spark plug intervals will be 3x as much as the V8.

Modern Toyota hybrids, especially their latest systems are not fragile. Toyota’s hybrid batteries routinely go 300k miles or more (often longer in non-taxi use), and the electric motors themselves are incredibly robust with very few failure reports. Turbos on modern Toyota 4-cyl engines (like the T24A-FTS) are also proving durable, often exceeding 200k+ miles when serviced properly.


The idea that a hybrid will need 2–4 turbo replacements, 3 batteries, and an electric motor swap is a stretch, especially with Toyota’s track record.

Both can last a long time, but turbo hybrids aren’t ticking time bombs. Your claim that a 4-cylinder or hybrid can’t go the distance just doesn’t match Toyota’s long-term reliability data.

While spark plug intervals might be longer on the V8, plug changes on a turbocharged four-cylinder are simpler and cheaper due to easier access and 1/2 the cylinders.

Bottom line: the V8 is great, but a modern Toyota hybrid is fully capable of 500k+ miles with fewer moving parts than you think and better fuel economy every mile of the way. (About 1,500 gallons worth every 100k miles. )

 

[Truckee]

The idea that a hybrid will need 2–4 turbo replacements, 3 batteries, and an electric motor swap is a stretch, especially with Toyota’s track record.

You think it's a stretch? Go back and review what you just posted.
You said: Hybrid battery can last 300k+ miles, Turbo: 200K+ miles.

Okay, 1 million miles divided by 300k is 3.3x.... that is 3 battery replacements
Turbo last 200k. Divide 1M in 200k... that 5 turbos or 4 replacements. Do you really think the hybrid motor will last 1 million miles without replacement?

You said, "While spark plug intervals might be longer on the V8, plug changes on a turbocharged four-cylinder are simpler and cheaper due to easier access and 1/2 the cylinders."

Check your math again. In 120k miles the V8 will have one spark plug change (8 spark plugs) that takes 1.2 hrs. The 2.4 i-Forcemax will have 12 spark plugs at 3 times at 1hr each time. That's neither cheaper nor less time.

Don't forget oil changes. There's no doubt a turbo motor is harder on oil... most would agree 1.5-2x the interval compared to naturally aspirated motors.

No doubt, there is fuel savings. But fuel economy has always taken a back seat to durability, reliability and longevity in the Land Cruiser world until CAFE standards imposed on it. If it wasn't for CAFE standards, the 2.4 would not be in a Land Cruiser.

 

[Truckee]

I don't understand the obsession with track speeds. As I believe Winchester44 already mentioned, Toyota could create a new "Dragster" drive mode that would launch the the hybrid LC off the line like a Tesla but what would be the point of that? I guess it would attract some of those Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk buyers

The good news is the light truck industry has been rapidly reducing the number of cylinders. In the case of Ford, it has gone from 8, to 6, to 4, and now 3 in its light truck/suv engines. In return, we have seen amazing improvements in power and fuel economy. Since 1975, horsepower per displacement has more than tripled (+210%) and at the same time fuel consumption per horsepower has fallen by 70%.

The industry has achieved this amazing success primarily by substituting pistons for turbos. Now, we are seeing the process continue by transitioning to hybrids which offer even more benefits. If the trend continues, after the next million miles you probably won't be able to find a new model truck/suv with a V8 or even V6. And that is a good thing.

So, it turns out there actually is a replacement for displacement. First it was the impeller and now it is a battery.

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Americans Buy Ever Bigger, More Powerful, More Fuel-Efficient Trucks, SUVs & Cars. EVs Escalate the Horsepower War | Wolf Street

There's no obsession with track speeds. I'd hardly call 88 mph a track speed. You're the one posting dynographs. The TRAP speed at the end of the 1/4 mile is indicative of engine power but also factors in gearing and resistance.

It is most safe to drive with the flow of traffic. The stock LC250 in stock form can keep up with the flow of traffic. Add a family of 4, camping gear, winch bumper, RTT.... just say GVWR and it is slower than most sedans. Add 35"+ tires and it becomes slower. Add a trailer... maybe take it up to the mountains and now it is really slow. You can't understand that?

As for your graphs, it should be pointed out the first two graphs regarding hp and fuel economy are way skewed due to 100% electric vehicles.

 

[TakaraLC]

.It is most safe to drive with the flow of traffic. The stock LC250 in stock form can keep up with the flow of traffic. Add a family of 4, camping gear, winch bumper, RTT.... just say GVWR and it is slower than most sedans. Add 35"+ tires and it becomes slower. Add a trailer... maybe take it up to the mountains and now it is really slow. You can't understand that?.

With that setup, so is GX lol. So are all Tacomas, all 4Runners, all tundra’s.

So I guess we should all be driving the sadans to be able to keep up with traffic, in case everyone climbing up a mountain pass decide to do 90MPH.

 

[TakaraLC]

You think it's a stretch? Go back and review what you just posted.
You said: Hybrid battery can last 300k+ miles, Turbo: 200K+ miles.

Okay, 1 million miles divided by 300k is 3.3x.... that is 3 battery replacements
Turbo last 200k. Divide 1M in 200k... that 5 turbos or 4 replacements. Do you really think the hybrid motor will last 1 million miles without replacement?

You said, "While spark plug intervals might be longer on the V8, plug changes on a turbocharged four-cylinder are simpler and cheaper due to easier access and 1/2 the cylinders."

Check your math again. In 120k miles the V8 will have one spark plug change (8 spark plugs) that takes 1.2 hrs. The 2.4 i-Forcemax will have 12 spark plugs at 3 times at 1hr each time. That's neither cheaper nor less time.

Don't forget oil changes. There's no doubt a turbo motor is harder on oil... most would agree 1.5-2x the interval compared to naturally aspirated motors.

No doubt, there is fuel savings. But fuel economy has always taken a back seat to durability, reliability and longevity in the Land Cruiser world until CAFE standards imposed on it. If it wasn't for CAFE standards, the 2.4 would not be in a Land Cruiser.

Yes, it is a stretch, because the 5.7 engine you are comparing to will also need to be replaced or completely rebuilt 3-4 times in a million miles.

 

[Truckee]

There is a chance a 5.7 can do a million miles on regular maintenance. There is no chance a T24A-FTS will go 1 million miles with just regular maintenance on the original turbo, battery and electric motor. If you call those maintenance items, then maybe.

 

[TakaraLC]

There is a chance a 5.7 can do a million miles on regular maintenance. There is no chance a T24A-FTS will go 1 million miles with just regular maintenance on the original turbo, battery and electric motor. If you call those maintenance items, then maybe.

5.7 engine with highest reported mileage is around 400k. So 1 million miles will require 3 engines. And this is 400k miles lifespan, vast majority last 200-300k miles.

 

[Truckee]

This guy had a 5.7 and 4.7 go a million miles on the original engine.

Toyota Tundra Owner Runs 4.7L V8 & 5.7L V8 Trucks Over 1 Million Miles Each!

Images by PickuptruckTalk.com Take a look. Our friend, Tim Esterdahl, from Pickup Truck plus SUV Talk shows us a 2014 Toyota Tundra 5.7L V8 truck that recent

tfltruck.com

This is not a 5.7 but another 4.7 going a million miles.

 

[EOD Guy]

Some of ya'll crack me up..........