Honest LC250 review that goes into more technical details & why Toyota missed the mark on LC250

[what_have_they_done]

Review is far from honest, suffers from confirmation bias, yea sure things no longer 1" thick in metal, but metals and material engineering has improved over the years.
Looks like 250 does just fine for being modded for wheeling gnarly trails ...

 

[what_have_they_done]

Well as a Toyota guy since my 76 FJ55 to my 2005 LC and my 2021 LC I think the 2024 First Edition is not as tough as the first 3 that are still going strong. I wanted to try the technology and I have noticed that people who go on Off Road Trails are not really true tests of off roading. Not if you began your off road trips from London to Nairobi across the Sahara and Central Africa Congo etc into Uganda Kenya and Tanzania. The off road clubs are just trying to break their cars wheras people who live off road are more careful. They are not trying to break them. That said my last 3 cars live on a ranch and they both do well. The FJ55 has a new open body now and lives in Northern Kenya.

In USA off-roading is confused with rock crawling heavily, whole country is paved in freeways hence.

 

[jhl72]

The 1958 trim you should be able to get about 10% off MSRP. That's what I got. Now I'm just doing my own skids, sliders, tires and roof rack. I do seat covers so don't need leather. It's been totally worth it. I'm coming from a 25 year old 100 series. I loved my 100 series but 25 years of technological and manufacturing advancement makes my 1958 feel like a space ship compared to that 100. Yea it's a little tin canny but all modern cars are IMO.

 

[Markarian421]

Well as a Toyota guy since my 76 FJ55 to my 2005 LC and my 2021 LC I think the 2024 First Edition is not as tough as the first 3 that are still going strong. I wanted to try the technology and I have noticed that people who go on Off Road Trails are not really true tests of off roading. Not if you began your off road trips from London to Nairobi across the Sahara and Central Africa Congo etc into Uganda Kenya and Tanzania. The off road clubs are just trying to break their cars wheras people who live off road are more careful. They are not trying to break them. That said my last 3 cars live on a ranch and they both do well. The FJ55 has a new open body now and lives in Northern Kenya.

Yes this for me at least. I grew up on a ranch many miles for the nearest paved road & learned to drive off-road long before I learned to drive on pavement. And I'd get in a lot of trouble if I so much as put scratches in our 4x4's! That's basically how I still use my 4x4's today -- I don't go rock crawling for the sake of rock crawling, I just drive some really bad roads to get to some interesting places.

 

[issim007]

I find that the review by Dan Edmunds is a good complement to this one with a slightly (more positive) take on the LC. He also looks at the differences with the GX550 and the eKDSS. Here is the link: or here https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a60778019/2024-toyota-land-cruiser-suspension-tested/

 

[LAR]

Tinkerer is Rad. He had really, really solid observations. Gotta admit, my heart sank a little with some of the points he made about the sway bar, rear diff. and CVs. But it is what is. I really like my LC and this doesn;t change my prospect of owning it for at least 10 years. Maybe gonna look into a beefed up sway bar though, the wallow is real.

*Edit: I wonder if the smaller rear differential has something to do with dedicated full-time 4 wheel drive vs. part-time with the rear differential being under more long-term stress?

Could the larger parts on the GX be more attributable to the extra tow weight of the GX than a definitive deminishing of the LC? At the end of the day, have any of these critiques been tied to an observable limit of capability?

 

[Truckee]

Here's an excellent example - Kai complains about the size of the gas tank on the LC250 (legit complaint IMHO). Using EPA ratings, the range of the LC250 at 23 mpg combines and 17.9 gallons is 412 miles. For an FJ using EPA ratings, the range at 18 mpg and 19 gallons is just 342 miles (and 345 miles for a 200 series!) That means the LC250 received a 20% jump in range compared to the much smaller and lighter FJ Cruiser. Cool. Still, I think most of us would agree that the LC could have (and should have) a slightly larger tank. On my wheels (Method 703/Falken WildPeak AT4W 255/80R17) I'm getting a real world range somewhere closer to 360 miles in daily use. So, um, Kai, that's a little DIShonest, don't you think?

Next up, the rear differential size. Kai, you can't be serious that you're only comparing the size of the rear diff between the FJ and LC, right? You don't even profess to know if one is necessarily better than the other. On this note, Eric at Ed Martin did a great job actually comparing the differentials - Is it a real Land Cruiser? Based on Eric's data, the LC250 certainly appears to have a slightly less stout gear set than the 200/100/80 series. I'm sure they could've gone with the slightly beefier ring gear in the 200 series, but every choice has a trade-off. If you keep trying to build a 300 series, pretty soon you have the weight and cost of a 300 series.

Honest price for the FE LC250? Good grief. He's comparing the base GX550 OverTrail to the FE? If all you compare is price and don't look at the details, you might think the GX OverTrail was the better buy. But, ignoring all those details is just a DIShonest smear. At this point, his video has mostly become a hack job. Kai is smart. Kai puts out excellent engineering/mechanical videos about Toyota products. C'mon, man, this is way below your standards.

The range is certainly determined by tank size and fuel economy. And Kai did acknowledge the 250 gets better fuel mileage than the FJ. However, the FJ has a shorter wheelbase and the fuel tank was maximized and was close to the rear axle. The 250 had vacant space. In any case, the 250, FJ, 200, 100, 80 all have small fuel tanks and limited range. A difference of 2-3 gallons won't make a significant difference. Everyone wants at least 12 more gallons.

I looked at your link with Ed Martin differential comparison. It's not a small difference. The 200 ring gear's mass is 34% more than the 250 and the 100 series rear ring gear mass is 43% more than the 250. But keep in mind, the 200 and 250 run a lower ratio due to the transmissions and therefore, there is more tooth contact.

This is the "9.5" LC200 diff next to the 5th Gen 4runner "8.2" differential....

Even if one were to choose the cheapest GX550 @ $64k (which is called the "Premium") versus the cheapest Land Cruiser 250 (Non-1958), at $63k... the GX would still get the 9.5" differential.

 

[Truckee]

Review is far from honest, suffers from confirmation bias, yea sure things no longer 1" thick in metal, but metals and material engineering has improved over the years.
Looks like 250 does just fine for being modded for wheeling gnarly trails ...

The review is honest from an off-roaders perspective. Kai does know the FJ inside and out and therefore is qualified to compare. He did point out parts that were thinner in metal vs the FJ. Do you think the advances in metallurgy were used on suspension mounts?

The Dissent 250 had no problem tackling tough trails but it had mods.... that addressed the areas Kai said were deficient. They did break their rear axle internally, bent the suspension tabs, They also upgraded the front CV's, upgraded the front knuckle/spindle (74weld), upgraded the upper control arms, rear lower control arms and whatever else. The rear lower control arm mounts were probably saved due to the extra high clearance from the portals. And that was only one season of wheeling. Deficiencies show up over time. A lot of 4Runners and LC150's do well off-road but the ones that do especially well are heavily modified.

If you are operating within the design limits, you should have no problems.

 

[Blue Bear]

The range is certainly determined by tank size and fuel economy. And Kai did acknowledge the 250 gets better fuel mileage than the FJ. However, the FJ has a shorter wheelbase and the fuel tank was maximized and was close to the rear axle. The 250 had vacant space. In any case, the 250, FJ, 200, 100, 80 all have small fuel tanks and limited range. A difference of 2-3 gallons won't make a significant difference. Everyone wants at least 12 more gallons.

I looked at your link with Ed Martin differential comparison. It's not a small difference. The 200 ring gear's mass is 34% more than the 250 and the 100 series rear ring gear mass is 43% more than the 250. But keep in mind, the 200 and 250 run a lower ratio due to the transmissions and therefore, there is more tooth contact.

View attachment 37292

This is the "9.5" LC200 diff next to the 5th Gen 4runner "8.2" differential....

Even if one were to choose the cheapest GX550 @ $64k (which is called the "Premium") versus the cheapest Land Cruiser 250 (Non-1958), at $63k... the GX would still get the 9.5" differential.

Nice analysis. This is what should've been in Kai's video.

 

[EOD Guy]

The range is certainly determined by tank size and fuel economy. And Kai did acknowledge the 250 gets better fuel mileage than the FJ. However, the FJ has a shorter wheelbase and the fuel tank was maximized and was close to the rear axle. The 250 had vacant space. In any case, the 250, FJ, 200, 100, 80 all have small fuel tanks and limited range. A difference of 2-3 gallons won't make a significant difference. Everyone wants at least 12 more gallons.

I looked at your link with Ed Martin differential comparison. It's not a small difference. The 200 ring gear's mass is 34% more than the 250 and the 100 series rear ring gear mass is 43% more than the 250. But keep in mind, the 200 and 250 run a lower ratio due to the transmissions and therefore, there is more tooth contact.

View attachment 37292

This is the "9.5" LC200 diff next to the 5th Gen 4runner "8.2" differential....

Even if one were to choose the cheapest GX550 @ $64k (which is called the "Premium") versus the cheapest Land Cruiser 250 (Non-1958), at $63k... the GX would still get the 9.5" differential.

Welcome to the Jungle!

 

[BlueCruiser]

I could pick apart the technical analysis (which I believe has issues) but the fundamental problem with the video is the premise. The LC 250 is better than the FJ Cruiser in the following attributes:

• More horsepower and torque
• Better gas mileage and range
• Wider span of gearing and smoother power application with 8 speed transmission and inline hybrid assist
• Greater suspension articulation, an SBD, and MTS
• More safety features and better tech package with off road cameras
• Much better visibility and vehicle access (No suicide doors, swing gate with tire rack, massive b-pillar, and tiny windows)
• Larger cargo space and a real 2nd row
• More towing capacity and an included tow package with wiring harness and brake controller
• A 1400 watt inverter

But the LC 250 somehow misses the mark, is not fit for purpose, and is not honest? Would a vehicle with less of those things somehow be a better SUV?

The FJ was a fine single purpose vehicle for its day. But don't be fooled by Kai's calipers because his analysis doesn't measure up (pun intended)

 

[TakaraLC]

Anyone knows what is the size of the front diff?

Based on what I found, both LC and GX have a 8” front diff. Since both are fulltime 4wd, having same front diff but different rear diffs suggests the bigger diff on GX is solely to handle heat generated during towing (bigger diff has more surface area and takes more fluid), as towing put disproportionally more load on rear diff.

If they have identical front and central diffs, it cannot be related to robustness.

 

[Blue Sky]

Didn't think this video warranted its own post, but here is an apples-to-apples comparison of a stock LC vs. one modified with the usual suspension goodies. Interestingly, the lift is stated as only being around 30mm (~1.18"). Just a heads up, the video turns into a commercial for the front bumper fabrication around the 12 min mark, which I found super interesting nonetheless. Wish the Aussies would share more of their super sweet goodies with us Northern Hemispherians.

 

[Altitude]

Don't be sour. He presented the facts. Still a great machine.

It’s a reasonable reaction though, considering the video title describes the 250 as a “miss” broadly, not specifically in comparison to the FJ’s off-roading kit.

It’s a click bait title and cleverly vague. The critique is on point.

 

[BlueCruiser]

I love driving my LC 250 and much prefer the hybrid/turbo combo with peak torque at 1800 RPMs and near instantaneous power delivery to the dual turbo approach. Or in this case, 17 turbos.

 

[RideWithYanu]

I believe Tink’s video title is very click-baity and his overall assessment overemphasizes the faults he identified - but I have no argument with the faults he identified and the guy absolutely knows what he’s talking about. Lots of hands over ears confirmation bias in this thread.

Not for nothing, I’ve already broken the front CV shaft on mine.

 

[Mtn40]

Not for nothing, I’ve already broken the front CV shaft on mine.

Really?! Story please!
Did you replace with stock, or upgrade to one from the Tacoma?

 

[RideWithYanu]

Really?! Story please!
Did you replace with stock, or upgrade to one from the Tacoma?

Toyota fully covered under warranty (I didn’t tell them exactly what I was doing that led to it, other than that I was technically on an open public “road”) so I didn’t get a choice beyond the OEM part. It did make me decide I might want to pick up some backups because it’s not a super expensive part or a difficult repair. Does the Tacoma version fit and is more robust?

 

[Mtn40]

Toyota fully covered under warranty (I didn’t tell them exactly what I was doing that led to it, other than that I was technically on an open public “road”) so I didn’t get a choice beyond the OEM part. It did make me decide I might want to pick up some backups because it’s not a super expensive part or a difficult repair. Does the Tacoma version fit and is more robust?

I'm still curious what kind of situation caused the failure and what suspension and tire setup you're running (I could probably search for your posts, but being lazy for now).

Supposedly some versions of the new Taco and 4R have the more robust and high-angle CV axles that basically have the Birfield-type CV joint at the inboard end. Probably the TRD or TH versions.
I think the Tinkerer video we're all going on about mentions this actually, but not sure now if that's where I'm remembering it from.
I've been meaning to dig into it and look up part numbers and prices, but haven't yet.

edit: I think Dissent said they did this upgrade on their 250 also.

 

[RideWithYanu]

I'm still curious what kind of situation caused the failure and what suspension and tire setup you're running (I could probably search for your posts, but being lazy for now).

Supposedly some versions of the new Taco and 4R have the more robust and high-angle CV axles that basically have the Birfield-type CV joint at the inboard end. Probably the TRD or TH versions.
I think the Tinkerer video we're all going on about mentions this actually, but not sure now if that's where I'm remembering it from.
I've been meaning to dig into it and look up part numbers and prices, but haven't yet.

edit: I think Dissent said they did this upgrade on their 250 also.

Wheel winching last winter as a last-ditch effort to get unstuck from a snow drift way out in the backcountry, and I wasn’t remotely gentle with it either. Far outside of usual operations of your average owner, I’m sure.

The beautiful thing is I was still able to drive it home.