Puddle defeats Land Cruiser

[Mopper]

What info did the Toyota dealership’s TechStream provide on the situation?

I got little explanation, can you please explain how I check this?

 

[DubDub]

I got little explanation, can you please explain how I check this?

You would need to get the dealership to share that info with you. Techstream is just the software Toyota uses to access, diagnose and make changes to your vehicle's onboard computers. It's akin to our consumer based Carista that connects to the OBD2. My dealership certainly doesn't post the logs anywhere I could ever hope to see it. My neighbor in Washington was a Toyota technician/mechanic and he had it on a laptop and made changes to my 4R and Taco in my driveway. I don't know how much of it was truth or lie, but he said the subscription was in the thousands and that he could get in a good amount of trouble if anyone important found out he was using it outside of his dealer.

 

[Mopper]

Ready for a theory?

Background:

1) Buddy J purchases fuel at Top Tier Station X and drives 50+ miles to his home in SE Michigan

2) I purchase 12.29 gallons of the same grade of fuel at the same gas station an hour and half later and drive 50+ miles to Buddy B's place 1/2 mile from Buddy J's place and park the vehicle (no problems whatsoever)

3) At least 18 hours later the next day, we start and drive my vehicle down to Buddy J's place, 1/2 mile. Again, no issues and it's been raining intermittently, sometimes heavily

4) After dinner, we start the vehicle and begin the short drive back to Buddy J's place. Again, no issues in first half of drive whatsoever. Smooth and ready

5) Approximately 1/4 mile into the 1/2 mile drive, there's my infamous puddle and I can't resist splashing, so I swerve the Land Cruiser through the puddle near the edge of the paved road.

6) The engine immediately started coughing, sputtering and dying; never to propel the vehicle forward again until after being towed to dealership and repaired

7) Dealership says bad gas and charges for repair. Sunk cost of the repair and a near full tank of gas that was drained. Had them save five gallons (made a mistake on this fuel). From the bill- "Cause: P3191, P319100, P22371B, P3191, P0031, P111C, P111C62, P3191, 00113. Correction: Fuel Trim Levels off after repairs were performed. Replace A/F Sensor. PN 2220424010 METER SUB-ASSY

8) Contacted Indiana Gov't (where station is) Division of Weights and Measures and filed a bad fuel complaint. THE DEPARTMENT OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES WAS GREAT- the lady was knowledgeable and helpful. She explained that water in the gas does happen but is far more rare at Top Tier stations (which is part of why I go to them). Unfortunately, I did this on Thursday after the dealership took 2 days to state diagnosis. They sent inspectors to the station and tested the appropriate tank by afternoon Thursday - acceptable moisture levels.

9) Because there were chain of custody issues around the can of fuel at the dealership, the fuel sample was useless to Indiana Dept of Weights & Measures. Because I THOUGHT the five gallons were useless as evidence, I left the five gallons (and newly purchased can to hold it) at the dealership rather than haul it 300 miles home inside the LC. Wish I had kept and purchased a moisture testing kit of some sort.

CONCLUSION: There is a key post above that I think leads to a complete answer - "next time you can check if the air filter is wet. if it's wet it means you sucked in water". This coupled with the service manager's 'oh by the way' statement as I was walking out clinched it: he said, "I couldn't get the trim right on the mass airflow sensor so I replaced it under warranty". Thinking about those two things, I opened up the breather filter box to feel the filter. Lo and behold I see a clump of fuzzy material and a mouse-sized divot gouged out in another area of the filter. Sooo.... The answer is that I splashed water enough to get up around the inner LH fender cowl and into the filter box. Some droplets made it up and into the intake air stream via the mouse hole in the filter fabric striking the mass airflow sensor and ruining it. The engine control system is immediately blinded and cannot perform. (EOD Guy's Critter Screen Mod is today) The end. Alright, I'm ready for your verbal pummeling....

 

[MSINAL]

Ready for a theory?

Background:

1) Buddy J purchases fuel at Top Tier Station X and drives 50+ miles to his home in SE Michigan

2) I purchase 12.29 gallons of the same grade of fuel at the same gas station an hour and half later and drive 50+ miles to Buddy B's place 1/2 mile from Buddy J's place and park the vehicle (no problems whatsoever)

3) At least 18 hours later the next day, we start and drive my vehicle down to Buddy J's place, 1/2 mile. Again, no issues and it's been raining intermittently, sometimes heavily

4) After dinner, we start the vehicle and begin the short drive back to Buddy J's place. Again, no issues in first half of drive whatsoever. Smooth and ready

5) Approximately 1/4 mile into the 1/2 mile drive, there's my infamous puddle and I can't resist splashing, so I swerve the Land Cruiser through the puddle near the edge of the paved road.

6) The engine immediately started coughing, sputtering and dying; never to propel the vehicle forward again until after being towed to dealership and repaired

7) Dealership says bad gas and charges for repair. Sunk cost of the repair and a near full tank of gas that was drained. Had them save five gallons (made a mistake on this fuel). From the bill- "Cause: P3191, P319100, P22371B, P3191, P0031, P111C, P111C62, P3191, 00113. Correction: Fuel Trim Levels off after repairs were performed. Replace A/F Sensor. PN 2220424010 METER SUB-ASSY

8) Contacted Indiana Gov't (where station is) Division of Weights and Measures and filed a bad fuel complaint. THE DEPARTMENT OF WEIGHTS AND MEASURES WAS GREAT- the lady was knowledgeable and helpful. She explained that water in the gas does happen but is far more rare at Top Tier stations (which is part of why I go to them). Unfortunately, I did this on Thursday after the dealership took 2 days to state diagnosis. They sent inspectors to the station and tested the appropriate tank by afternoon Thursday - acceptable moisture levels.

9) Because there were chain of custody issues around the can of fuel at the dealership, the fuel sample was useless to Indiana Dept of Weights & Measures. Because I THOUGHT the five gallons were useless as evidence, I left the five gallons (and newly purchased can to hold it) at the dealership rather than haul it 300 miles home inside the LC. Wish I had kept and purchased a moisture testing kit of some sort.

CONCLUSION: There is a key post above that I think leads to a complete answer - "next time you can check if the air filter is wet. if it's wet it means you sucked in water". This coupled with the service manager's 'oh by the way' statement as I was walking out clinched it: he said, "I couldn't get the trim right on the mass airflow sensor so I replaced it under warranty". Thinking about those two things, I opened up the breather filter box to feel the filter. Lo and behold I see a clump of fuzzy material and a mouse-sized divot gouged out in another of filter. Sooo.... The answer is that I splashed water enough to get up around the inner LH fender cowl and into the filter box. Some droplets made it up and into the intake air stream via the mouse hole in the filter fabric striking the mass airflow sensor and ruining it. The engine control system is immediately blinded and cannot perform. (Critter Screen Mod is today) The end. Alright, I'm ready for your verbal pummeling....

So the dealer returned it to you with the damaged filter? If so, god help us with these toyota dealers

 

[DubDub]

No pummeling required. I do think that your original post didn't accurately define what occurred though... instead of saying "drove through a 2 inch +/- puddle and my '25 LC 250 nearly immediately starting sputtering and died," you could have gone with what you finally said "there's my infamous puddle and I can't resist splashing, so I swerve the Land Cruiser through the puddle near the edge of the paved road." Then we may have all not assumed that you simply splashed up some incidental water.

For the record, I'd have, and have done the same. Puddles are meant to be obliterated. "You see, what had happened was, that puddle over there was looking at me some kind of way so I killed it dead." Usually guys exaggerate things they conquer, you did the opposite and made this puddle seem like it was an aside

I second the above sentiment though... if a dealership is chasing down a MAF shutdown situation, and even replaces the MAF sensor for you, but they don't catch the shredded filter? Well, that means one of two things: 1) They are completely incompetent, or 2) they intentionally messed with that filter to keep the cost responsibility where they prefer it to be...

 

[Mopper]

No pummeling required. I do think that your original post didn't accurately define what occurred though... instead of saying "drove through a 2 inch +/- puddle and my '25 LC 250 nearly immediately starting sputtering and died," you could have gone with what you finally said "there's my infamous puddle and I can't resist splashing, so I swerve the Land Cruiser through the puddle near the edge of the paved road." Then we may have all not assumed that you simply splashed up some incidental water.

For the record, I'd have, and have done the same. Puddles are meant to be obliterated. "You see, what had happened was, that puddle over there was looking at me some kind of way so I killed it dead." Usually guys exaggerate things they conquer, you did the opposite and made this puddle seem like it was an aside

I second the above sentiment though... if a dealership is chasing down a MAF shutdown situation, and even replaces the MAF sensor for you, but they don't catch the shredded filter? Well, that means one of two things: 1) They are completely incompetent, or 2) they intentionally messed with that filter to keep the cost responsibility where they prefer it to be...

You're likely spot on. The thought had occurred to me but I hope the dealer is working in good faith. Like me not indulging in speculation I cannot prove.

 

[Mopper]

So the dealer returned it to you with the damaged filter? If so, god help us with these toyota dealers

Correct. Not thrilled with their apparent complete dismissal of anything other than untested "bad fuel" preconclusion. But me paying for repair is appropriate but they absolutely should have picked up the filter problem

 

[Mopper]

You're likely spot on. The thought had occurred to me but I hope the dealer is working in good faith. Like me not indulging in speculation I cannot prove.

Importantly, in the mouse clump I did believe I saw some (acorn?) nut hull which says there really was a mouse and the dealership made mistakes but was not dishonest about the filter

 

[MSINAL]

No pummeling required. I do think that your original post didn't accurately define what occurred though... instead of saying "drove through a 2 inch +/- puddle and my '25 LC 250 nearly immediately starting sputtering and died," you could have gone with what you finally said "there's my infamous puddle and I can't resist splashing, so I swerve the Land Cruiser through the puddle near the edge of the paved road." Then we may have all not assumed that you simply splashed up some incidental water.

For the record, I'd have, and have done the same. Puddles are meant to be obliterated. "You see, what had happened was, that puddle over there was looking at me some kind of way so I killed it dead." Usually guys exaggerate things they conquer, you did the opposite and made this puddle seem like it was an aside

I second the above sentiment though... if a dealership is chasing down a MAF shutdown situation, and even replaces the MAF sensor for you, but they don't catch the shredded filter? Well, that means one of two things: 1) They are completely incompetent, or 2) they intentionally messed with that filter to keep the cost responsibility where they prefer it to be...

2. Incompetent - or malicious. Likely both.

 

[Mopper]

2. Incompetent - or malicious. Likely both.

I'd love to tell you I had good feelings about the service advisor but I don't. But this would/should have been the tech... as monitored by service advisor and service manager. Careless at the minimum, gets worse from there. Small dealership in a smaller town. And no choice, closet one. A possible chink in the proverbial Toyota armor!

 

[RideWithYanu]

I’m not going to pretend like I don’t like to explode puddles too, but this is a classic example why we shouldn’t! I’m glad you got it figured out, and thanks for sharing back with us for some conclusion.

It’s a shame dealers (generally) really can’t be trusted to do quality work.

 

[Mopper]

I’m not going to pretend like I don’t like to explode puddles too, but this is a classic example why we shouldn’t! I’m glad you got it figured out, and thanks for sharing back with us for some conclusion.

It’s a shame dealers (generally) really can’t be trusted to do quality work.

We had a day a week or so back where we got a couple inches of rain and there was flash flooding all over the place. There were also quarter-mile long puddles six inches deep that I drove 40ish through without incident- part of the reason I originally just called the timing a coincidence. I'm going to modify my behavior and only do "water crossings" as required and then at LOW speed

 

[GR8Santini]

Mopped - I keep picturing your swerve causing your LC to swallow little ‘ol Might Mouse as he takes out your MAF, & you know that would probably be like a felony in IL. Just kidding!

I learned from this post that Toyota designed a pre-filter in the bottom of the stock air cleaner housing to prevent dust ingestion….and keep critters out of it! I do wonder if it assists at all in limited reduction of water intrusion.

 

[Mopper]

Mopped - I keep picturing your swerve causing your LC to swallow little ‘ol Might Mouse as he takes out your MAF, & you know that would probably be like a felony in IL. Just kidding!

I learned from this post that Toyota designed a pre-filter in the bottom of the stock air cleaner housing to prevent dust ingestion….and keep critters out of it! I do wonder if it assists at all in limited reduction of water intrusion.

Good thing I was in Michigan! My belief is that the failure wouldn't have happened if the filter was intact. Mouse creating the breach is root-cause. All the rest is just circumstance, evidence or over-simplified explanation. Is it any wonder that it takes kind of a complex series of interrelationships to get a Land Cruiser to puke out dead right now? I think not!

 

[wpage]

Good thing I was in Michigan! My belief is that the failure wouldn't have happened if the filter was intact. Mouse creating the breach is root-cause. All the rest is just circumstance, evidence or over-simplified explanation. Is it any wonder that it takes kind of a complex series of interrelationships to get a Land Cruiser to puke out dead right now? I think not!

Agree mouse is root cause. Also why stealership would not have inspected air filter initially is a failure. Yes the EOD screen remedy is a method of rodent prevention, since these critters seem attracted to filers as a warm bed. Tasty as well...
Lesson learned, if you fail after a water event. Check your air filter !!)

 

[jbtaco2002]

glad mine made it through this puddle...

 

[wakeskate]

I'd like to think I can learn from other's mistakes, but the inexplicable urges to go through puddles at any speed is just too strong. it's like instinct. i'll continue to surprise my passengers - sometimes I'm nice and roll the window up for them

 

[MSINAL]

I'd like to think I can learn from other's mistakes, but the inexplicable urges to go through puddles at any speed is just too strong. it's like instinct. i'll continue to surprise my passengers - sometimes I'm nice and roll the window up for them

Plus we're doing society (sportscars, those with bald tires, people with holes in air filters..., etc.) a solid by reducing the depths of the puddles for the less privileged.

 

[Mopper]

Parting thoughts- nobody should wait to do @EOD Guy's Critter Screen mod. You really can't afford to: I live in a wet area so dust isn't bad. And a little water managed to get through and cut my LC down at the ankles. Imagine that I went ahead on to Big Bend NP with the mouse hole in the filter and went off-roading for the planned 3 or 4 days... I'm certain unfiltered air isn't good for the turbo and when it's laden with dust, something's going to pay and it might be your wallet.

Ok, I'm headed out to install my $10 investment in epoxy coated galvanized wire and never face this again

 

[GR8Santini]

have a K&N filter replacement in my LC. One of the new benefits is no mouse can eat through that metal mesh on the media.