Most Disappointing Vehicle Ive Owned
- Thread starter mpauly
- Start date
Stock, my speedo was 3 mph fast. On 35s, my speedo is 3 mph slow. Accuracy is somewhere in the middle then.
Mine is -1 MPH off with 34s (285/70r18), Toyo AT3 "E".
That doesn't hold true for the way Toyota handled the recent Tundra engine issue; Toyota continued selling them through the time that they were outed on Reddit prior to them formally admitting (24 hours later) to the impending 100k+ engine replacements. I believe they continued selling units that were assumed to be in the 'bad batch', not sure if they ever had a stop-sale. Further, I believe that Toyota has prioritized fixing non-hybrid versions first, since the hybrid units could 'limp' compared to the non-hybrids.
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My '24 250 PP got 17.7 when I first picked it up (34s, skid plates and sliders, OEM 1st Ed roof rack), and has trickled downward from there (towing more this summer, currently at around 16.5). At ~10k I got the (second) dreaded hybrid malfunction while offroad (first error months before did not 'stick' in the computer), and a few days later the dealer confirmed a transmission solenoid/hybrid unit error, and broke the news that likely the transmission/hybrid unit/solenoid would need to be replaced. I have not been back in to follow up yet, as I want to know that Toyota knows what caused it and that they fixed it prior to installing a new transmission. Oddly, after they had diagnosed it, it shifted MUCH better for a few weeks, but is now back to the jerky 1/2/3 gear shifts that first prompted me to bring it in to be looked at months ago.
Of course all of this is anecdotal internet discourse, but this is exactly how the Tundra debacle started ("it's just a handful of failures out of many tens of thousands!!!"), and Toyota is being similarly quiet early on in this transmission issue. Tundra engines that have not exhibited a problem will be replaced. I sincerely hope that this transmission issue remains a small percentage of units, but something is clearly awry considering the Tacoma failures, while the reported 4Runner failures are particularly disturbing since they are quite new, and leads one to believe that Toyota does not yet know the how/what/whys of the problem. Of note, the fact that both US-built (Tacoma) and Japan-built (4Runner and LC) vehicles are experiencing the failure suggests something other than 'debris', e.g. some sort of design issue.
I just hope Toyota owns it soon so that I know it can be successfully replaced.
UPDATE: Toyota is still not 'owning' it, and in my case is backpedaling a bit on the initial diagnosis (which indicated, per the service advisor, that a transmission replacement was likely). After last time it was in I got the feeling they were sitting back and telling me to drive it until it actually fails (and strands me), and since the second batch of 125k Tundra engines was recently announced, it makes sense that Toyota Corporate would like to delay any TSB for the LC's transmission as long as possible.
This week my dealer had it in to look at the transmission, and kept it overnight to put some monitoring equipment in (supposedly) and test drive it when cold. Of course, they could not duplicate any of the shifting issues, which I had communicated as being intermittent. For the second time now, driving away from the dealer it felt like a brand-new vehicle, shifting perfectly, and all of a sudden getting 18 miles per gallon (suburban, gradual uphill), while the hybrid battery charged from 4 bars to 7 bars (this rarely happens in my vehicle, only when descending very long grades). It's like them messing with diagnostics flashes some memory back to original state, and it performs normally for a week or two.
Service guy happened to give me a printout of the error codes from the day the transmission hiccuped, and I could finally see the 'P074571' code, which identifies as "Pressure Control Solenoid 'A' Actuator Stuck". This led me to finally read the Tacoma TSB (T-SB-0094-24) which clearly states that the transmission assembly (transmission + hybrid unit + torque converter) should be replaced.
I understand that the TSB only applies to Tacomas, but I also fully understand that Toyota will drag out a TSB for as long as they possibly can before committing to a fix. As originally stated in this or other threads around here, I'd really like for Toyota to fully understand the problem with these transmissions prior to replacing mine with an identical, potentially fault-prone unit. However, based upon the Tundra debacle, it becomes clear that this could play out for a year or two before it is actually solved. I sincerely hope that the failure rate is indeed around 0.01% (hell, I'd take 1%!), as I suppose the likelihood of receiving two transmissions with the same issue would be practically nil.
I am continuing to hold my breath.
This week my dealer had it in to look at the transmission, and kept it overnight to put some monitoring equipment in (supposedly) and test drive it when cold. Of course, they could not duplicate any of the shifting issues, which I had communicated as being intermittent. For the second time now, driving away from the dealer it felt like a brand-new vehicle, shifting perfectly, and all of a sudden getting 18 miles per gallon (suburban, gradual uphill), while the hybrid battery charged from 4 bars to 7 bars (this rarely happens in my vehicle, only when descending very long grades). It's like them messing with diagnostics flashes some memory back to original state, and it performs normally for a week or two.
Service guy happened to give me a printout of the error codes from the day the transmission hiccuped, and I could finally see the 'P074571' code, which identifies as "Pressure Control Solenoid 'A' Actuator Stuck". This led me to finally read the Tacoma TSB (T-SB-0094-24) which clearly states that the transmission assembly (transmission + hybrid unit + torque converter) should be replaced.
I understand that the TSB only applies to Tacomas, but I also fully understand that Toyota will drag out a TSB for as long as they possibly can before committing to a fix. As originally stated in this or other threads around here, I'd really like for Toyota to fully understand the problem with these transmissions prior to replacing mine with an identical, potentially fault-prone unit. However, based upon the Tundra debacle, it becomes clear that this could play out for a year or two before it is actually solved. I sincerely hope that the failure rate is indeed around 0.01% (hell, I'd take 1%!), as I suppose the likelihood of receiving two transmissions with the same issue would be practically nil.
I am continuing to hold my breath.
So why hold back and wait...??
So frustrating and worrying. Makes me hope that there may just be a software issue that they just haven’t figured out (wishful thinking perhaps).
The reason your transmission feels good for a bit, is Toyota is resetting the adaptation it does when new or the ECU is replace. Between learning vehicle and driver inputs if adapts overtime to help smooth out the shift points based upon those inputs.
Hope they get it sorted for you.
For the speedo freaks, all OEM speedos are off, to read on the higher side to avoid liability for speeding tickets. The same reason most cops won't even look at you until 5+MPH above the speed limit, the accepted error is 3-5 MPH IIRC. Also no speedo is off by a set 1, 2 or 3 MPH ect., they may be off by say 5 MPH at 60 but the faster you go the further off it will be and the slower you go the closer to being accurate it will get. When an OEM offers multiple tire sizes for the same vehicle your not likely going to get the best results on accuracy, I'd be more concern with Odometer if I were to be concerned over such a minor detail. At 300,000 miles on the ODO the average as configured OEM vehicle if travelling at an average speed of 60 MPH over its life will read 315,000 miles instead, I'd prefer this over and under reported ODO for a vehicle I'm keeping long term (think larger tires fitted). First timing belt change at 100k not a big deal but the next two start getting sketchy.
Hope they get it sorted for you.
For the speedo freaks, all OEM speedos are off, to read on the higher side to avoid liability for speeding tickets. The same reason most cops won't even look at you until 5+MPH above the speed limit, the accepted error is 3-5 MPH IIRC. Also no speedo is off by a set 1, 2 or 3 MPH ect., they may be off by say 5 MPH at 60 but the faster you go the further off it will be and the slower you go the closer to being accurate it will get. When an OEM offers multiple tire sizes for the same vehicle your not likely going to get the best results on accuracy, I'd be more concern with Odometer if I were to be concerned over such a minor detail. At 300,000 miles on the ODO the average as configured OEM vehicle if travelling at an average speed of 60 MPH over its life will read 315,000 miles instead, I'd prefer this over and under reported ODO for a vehicle I'm keeping long term (think larger tires fitted). First timing belt change at 100k not a big deal but the next two start getting sketchy.
If not previously pointed out, an odometer reading high runs the warranty out early.
Sure does, a whole 5k early if you got an extend 100k warranty and average 60 MPH for the life of the car (Most are probably around 40 MPH average so 3.7k early), otherwise its somewhere in between, not a big deal and it's industry wide.
Edit: corrected the math a bit for the 40 MPH calculation
Edit: corrected the math a bit for the 40 MPH calculation
The MPH would have no bearing. However, if one was, say 2K over the warranty by the odometer and something serious happened, it would be tough to swallow. I suppose one just has to accept it. Besides, that is why we purchase Toyotas, so they do not break. Well, don't tell this to the unfortunate souls owning a Toyota with the V6 main bearing destruction issue.
I'm not sure this has been opined on here yet.. maybe it has, I just missed it.
Why do I feel like the folks who are getting bad MPG (lower than was expected/advertised, and not due to aftermarket 35's/roofboxs/etc.) are the ones with a bad and/or failing transmission? Seems like a pattern to me... Thoughts from Bad1975?
Why do I feel like the folks who are getting bad MPG (lower than was expected/advertised, and not due to aftermarket 35's/roofboxs/etc.) are the ones with a bad and/or failing transmission? Seems like a pattern to me... Thoughts from Bad1975?
The speed absolutely matters as the lower the speed the less the accuracy difference and thus the same goes for the ODO. The speed is measured via the abs sensors which doesn't change location when changing tires 1 rotation is 1 rotation as measured by the abs, the tire circumference being different effects how far you travel based on one rotation (faster more rotations and wider accuracy discrepancy, slower less rotations and less discrepancy).
That's another reason MPG calculations mean absolutely nothing once you go to bigger tires without speedo correction since the MPH value doesn't remain a constant number off at all speeds. The only somewhat accurate method to calculate your MPG would be using GPS distance travelled vs gallons used. You can get close enough with an approximation by using your average speed and factor the % delta based on that. A lot of tire calculators will show variance based on speed between the two sizes. Even the OEM numbers when manually calculated are wrong because of the speedo error, this may explain some of the EPA variance disparities people see as the EPA uses measured distances and fuel quantity used by weight, not the ODO and gallons filled at the pump.
@D-Train I'm not sure I understand what your asking? Are you saying the people with issues seem to be the ones who have done some major modifications?
Hard to attribute the MPG being lower as the same ones having issues IMO, since everyone's MPG varies a lot based on a lot of different factors.
That's another reason MPG calculations mean absolutely nothing once you go to bigger tires without speedo correction since the MPH value doesn't remain a constant number off at all speeds. The only somewhat accurate method to calculate your MPG would be using GPS distance travelled vs gallons used. You can get close enough with an approximation by using your average speed and factor the % delta based on that. A lot of tire calculators will show variance based on speed between the two sizes. Even the OEM numbers when manually calculated are wrong because of the speedo error, this may explain some of the EPA variance disparities people see as the EPA uses measured distances and fuel quantity used by weight, not the ODO and gallons filled at the pump.
@D-Train I'm not sure I understand what your asking? Are you saying the people with issues seem to be the ones who have done some major modifications?
Hard to attribute the MPG being lower as the same ones having issues IMO, since everyone's MPG varies a lot based on a lot of different factors.
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Sorry.. could have worded my question/supposition better.
For the sake of clarity, a stock LC that is getting 'below average' mpg's.. let's say 15-18mpg. Is there anyway the failing/bad pump in the transmission is somehow causing the below advertised mpg's?
I suppose it could if the hydraulic pressure is excessive or creating drag within the transmission or under pressure causing holding of gears longer, earlier downshifting or limiting the normal operation of the K0 clutch in the hybrid MG portion of the transmission. I would suspect if that were to be the case these people would have had normal gas mileage before the issue presented itself and may or should have noticed a sudden unexplained drop?
Unless it was having issues from the start, but I would still figure the MPG would have started at say 18 and trended lower during break-in vice the other way round and once it reached it low MPG point they weren't able to get any better mileage no matter how hard they tried??
Also too much we don't know and probably never will. In some transmissions it was the Solenoid that failed as listed for the cause, did the Solenoid fail due pressure too high or too low from the pump? Were their transmission temps elevated and went un-noticed because that was normal for their vehicle and not to the point of setting off a warning?
For my work we have Hydraulic Solenoids, they are very robust (most are well over 30 years old with more than 10,000 hours on them) and usually the only thing that kills one of those (besides idiots breaking the connector housing off) is debris, either via clogging the filter screen (pressure increased and flow decreased) or damaging the reed valve from debris that made its way through the filter screen. Fluid gets sampled quarterly in these systems to increase reliability.
Not sure what the design is of a transmission solenoid, but I would suspect they are quite robust as well and similar in design just smaller and would only suffer from the same issues and of course heat which we don't have to deal with near the amount of heat load that a transmission sees.
For my work we have Hydraulic Solenoids, they are very robust (most are well over 30 years old with more than 10,000 hours on them) and usually the only thing that kills one of those (besides idiots breaking the connector housing off) is debris, either via clogging the filter screen (pressure increased and flow decreased) or damaging the reed valve from debris that made its way through the filter screen. Fluid gets sampled quarterly in these systems to increase reliability.
Not sure what the design is of a transmission solenoid, but I would suspect they are quite robust as well and similar in design just smaller and would only suffer from the same issues and of course heat which we don't have to deal with near the amount of heat load that a transmission sees.
I'm not sure why you think the speed impacts the odometer reading - @Nuke is right - the speed has nothing to do with the accuracy of the odometer reading. As you said in your post, one rotation is one rotation. I'll do some quick math stuff and....
Using 32.5" diameter for the stock 265/60R20 tires, it takes 62,055,789 revolutions to travel 100,000 miles. Cool.
At the same number of revolutions, a 33" tire will have traveled 101,538 miles.
At the same number of revolutions, a 34" tire will have traveled 104,615 miles.
At the same number of revolutions, a 35” tire will have traveled 107,692 miles.
So, running larger tires means you are actually traveling further for the same number of rotations and, in essence, extending the warranty a little bit.
How fast you get there has nothing to do with the distance traveled because the odometer bases the distance displayed on the number of revolutions and an expected tire diameter.
On the other hand, the faster you go, the greater the difference between the speedometer reading and the actual speed of the truck. Some quick math (again!). The top row of the table is your true speed, but the numbers in the table represent the speedometer reading while your driving. For example, on 33" tires, when the speedo reads 59 mph, you are actually going 60 mph. The bigger the tire, the bigger the difference in reading. However, the percent error in the reading remains constant for any particular diameter. The important thing to know is that you'll be moving faster than the indicated speed at all times on bigger tires. If you're on 35" tires, you better know that a reading of 65 mph on your speedo means you're actually going about 75 mph.
| Ratio | 30 | 60 | 75 | |
| 33" | 0.9848 | 29.5 | 59.1 | 73.9 |
| 34" | 0.9559 | 28.7 | 56.5 | 70.6 |
| 35" | 0.9286 | 27.9 | 52.4 | 65.6 |
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I stand corrected on the ODO readings, but you helped prove my point (although I think my explanation is probably as clear as mud) on the speedo which was the main point I was making as people consistently post that their speedo is off by X which isn't correct. As you have shown you have to use the ratio to calculate MPG and MPH and know how far off your speedo is a different points to avoid the flashy lights or just use GPS speed.
I look at the warranty the other way round, think 100k warranty with full paid maintenance plan included at every 5k. You'll get the same amount of maintenance intervals performed although at more miles travelled at each interval and by the time you truly travel 100k you're about 1/2 way to your first out of pocket interval.
But as I said the impacts aren't that severe like some would believe and have posted concerns about in the past concerning their free maintenance and warranty, until you get into 37" and beyond territory and this isn't just a Toyota thing. It's pretty much irrelevant especially since most sell before 100k and the few who don't usually offload shortly after that.
Would be nice if someone comes out with speedo corrector for the platform for those on OEM+ sizes or just to get the speedo to be correct for others. I can say from experience it won't change the trip computer calculation unless it's a completely new design as I've had these units on multiple platforms and the ECU still sees the actual ABS speed sensor value, I can live read the ECU speed on my Tundra with i-data link maestro. I wonder if the ECU also stores mileage from that so when running a corrector it would show a difference if one were to check?
I look at the warranty the other way round, think 100k warranty with full paid maintenance plan included at every 5k. You'll get the same amount of maintenance intervals performed although at more miles travelled at each interval and by the time you truly travel 100k you're about 1/2 way to your first out of pocket interval.
But as I said the impacts aren't that severe like some would believe and have posted concerns about in the past concerning their free maintenance and warranty, until you get into 37" and beyond territory and this isn't just a Toyota thing. It's pretty much irrelevant especially since most sell before 100k and the few who don't usually offload shortly after that.
Would be nice if someone comes out with speedo corrector for the platform for those on OEM+ sizes or just to get the speedo to be correct for others. I can say from experience it won't change the trip computer calculation unless it's a completely new design as I've had these units on multiple platforms and the ECU still sees the actual ABS speed sensor value, I can live read the ECU speed on my Tundra with i-data link maestro. I wonder if the ECU also stores mileage from that so when running a corrector it would show a difference if one were to check?
No... Your MPH has time factor (per hour)...so the reason the speedometer is off by a greater margin when traveling faster is because there are more revolutions within that time period, and each of those revolutions may be covering a distance greater than or less than what is expected by the vehicle computer. The odometer, or total distance traveled, is measuring only the total revolutions, however, so it doesn't matter how quickly or slowly you drove to achieve them.
Take 2 stock tire sizes in the US: 265/70R18 and 245/70R18 (1958 ed). The former has a circumference of 102.4" and the latter 99". Let's also assume that the computer is configured for the more common 265/70R18 tire size...
If you drive 10 miles on the 265s, that's 6187.5 revolutions of the tires...which is what the vehicle assumes...
6187.5 revolutions on the 245s, however, will only travel 9.67 miles, regardless of how fast or slowly you are going.
So, given that difference of 0.33 miles for every ten miles traveled means that if you drive both vehicles at 30 MPH for one hour, the LC on 265s will have traveled 1 mile further (meaning the speedometer on 245s was off by 1 MPH), but if you increase the speed to 60 MPH, then the LC on 265s has gone 2 miles further (speedometer on 245s off by 2)...the odometers on each would read the same, however, regardless if you drove each 30 MPH for 2 hours or 60 MPH for 1 hour.
Our friend @Bad1975 acknowledged this in the post just above yours.
That's what I get for not reading more critically early in the morning
