LC not starting after 3 days parked
- Thread starter francis
- Start date
I don't know if this is worth it's own thread but my issue is similar to this, just a bit more serious.
I have a 2024 LC that I use for work in the Yukon Territory, Canada. I do not live in Yukon, so the car is parked while I am not there.
In November I was using it to drive around the territory quite extensively, with no issues until after my return to Whitehorse (the main city).
After driving about 400km, I parked the car for a couple of hours (temperature about -10C) and then got in and started driving. A number of alarms came on after driving a short distance: Hybrid System malfunction, Secondary Collision Brake System malfunction, CEL, Drive-Start Control Malfunction. I immediately took it to the dealer who booked a service for the next morning. Parked it overnight, then in the morning drove a few km (alarms still active). After a couple of hours parked, I started it again, and this time all the alarms were gone. I took it to the dealership and left it there as I had a flight out that morning. When the dealership eventually looked at the codes, they told me that it was a problem with the 12V battery and they put it on a charger and it's all good to go.
Fast forward to last week: returned to Whitehorse, picked the vehicle up from the dealership and started a 600km drive to a remote community. About 450km into the drive, the alarms came back on. Then after a few more km, a more troubling alarm: Reduced Power. Apparently, In Toyota speak, "Reduced Power" means NO power. I coasted to a stop with the engine behaving erratically (rough idling, surging RPM). No cell service, outside temperature now at around -37C. Engine then stalled. I waited a couple of minutes wondering what I was going to do aside from, quite literally, freeze to death. Then I restarted the vehicle, and thankfully it started. I drove maybe another mile, and the same thing happened. After 4 cycles of this - start, drive about a mile, power cuts out, coast to a stop, and restart, the vehicle decided to maintain enough power to limp it to my destination, revving quite high the rest of the trip. Parked it overnight plugged into the block heater.
The next day the vehicle started without problem, other than all the alarms still being on, but the revving and erratic engine behavior still present (idling RPM surging, etc.) I tried to find a replacement 12V battery and eventually arranged to have one sent up from the dealership. The vehicle started and was able to be driven for the remainder of the day (short distances only). Parked it overnight and started it then next morning and all the alarms were gone. Drove it around all day, starting and parking several times without any problem. The next day the vehicle would not start. A jump pack was not able to get it going. The vehicle was eventually towed back to Whitehorse at considerable expense (as Roadside assistance only covers the first 300km). I never was able to replace the battery as the back hatch would not open and the car could not be moved to a warm shop to do the work (not a good idea to try to perform this task at -40C).
The vehicle now sits at the dealership in Whitehorse, apparently with a number of other hybrid vehicles experiencing similar issues, waiting to be looked at by an overwhelmed dealership.
My takeaway from this experience is that these vehicles are NOT appropriate for colder climates. They pose a significant safety risk to their operators and occupants. Am I overreacting?
I have a 2024 LC that I use for work in the Yukon Territory, Canada. I do not live in Yukon, so the car is parked while I am not there.
In November I was using it to drive around the territory quite extensively, with no issues until after my return to Whitehorse (the main city).
After driving about 400km, I parked the car for a couple of hours (temperature about -10C) and then got in and started driving. A number of alarms came on after driving a short distance: Hybrid System malfunction, Secondary Collision Brake System malfunction, CEL, Drive-Start Control Malfunction. I immediately took it to the dealer who booked a service for the next morning. Parked it overnight, then in the morning drove a few km (alarms still active). After a couple of hours parked, I started it again, and this time all the alarms were gone. I took it to the dealership and left it there as I had a flight out that morning. When the dealership eventually looked at the codes, they told me that it was a problem with the 12V battery and they put it on a charger and it's all good to go.
Fast forward to last week: returned to Whitehorse, picked the vehicle up from the dealership and started a 600km drive to a remote community. About 450km into the drive, the alarms came back on. Then after a few more km, a more troubling alarm: Reduced Power. Apparently, In Toyota speak, "Reduced Power" means NO power. I coasted to a stop with the engine behaving erratically (rough idling, surging RPM). No cell service, outside temperature now at around -37C. Engine then stalled. I waited a couple of minutes wondering what I was going to do aside from, quite literally, freeze to death. Then I restarted the vehicle, and thankfully it started. I drove maybe another mile, and the same thing happened. After 4 cycles of this - start, drive about a mile, power cuts out, coast to a stop, and restart, the vehicle decided to maintain enough power to limp it to my destination, revving quite high the rest of the trip. Parked it overnight plugged into the block heater.
The next day the vehicle started without problem, other than all the alarms still being on, but the revving and erratic engine behavior still present (idling RPM surging, etc.) I tried to find a replacement 12V battery and eventually arranged to have one sent up from the dealership. The vehicle started and was able to be driven for the remainder of the day (short distances only). Parked it overnight and started it then next morning and all the alarms were gone. Drove it around all day, starting and parking several times without any problem. The next day the vehicle would not start. A jump pack was not able to get it going. The vehicle was eventually towed back to Whitehorse at considerable expense (as Roadside assistance only covers the first 300km). I never was able to replace the battery as the back hatch would not open and the car could not be moved to a warm shop to do the work (not a good idea to try to perform this task at -40C).
The vehicle now sits at the dealership in Whitehorse, apparently with a number of other hybrid vehicles experiencing similar issues, waiting to be looked at by an overwhelmed dealership.
My takeaway from this experience is that these vehicles are NOT appropriate for colder climates. They pose a significant safety risk to their operators and occupants. Am I overreacting?
I don’t think you’re overreacting, considering what you have experienced firsthand. This is a massive shortcoming that Toyota needs to address. Between the battery unreliability (easier to fix) and the pervasive safety features which cannot be disengaged, I don’t consider the J250 to be a viable SHTF/bug-out vehicle. This is the natural outcome of increasingly complex systems and focus on making the average driver safer.
Not a ubiquitous use case, so I understand Toyota doesn’t prioritize it.
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Stumbled on this from Toyota while browsing TIS just now:
To reduce parasitic battery drain on vehicles (other than the Mirai) that are placed in storage for one week or more, the negative (–) battery cable should ALWAYS be disconnected to reduce battery discharge. When the negative (–) battery cable is reconnected, check and reset electrical components, such as the clock, radio, etc., and re-initialize ALL applicable systems/functions.
Needing to disconnect the battery if not driving for a week sounds...weird.
To reduce parasitic battery drain on vehicles (other than the Mirai) that are placed in storage for one week or more, the negative (–) battery cable should ALWAYS be disconnected to reduce battery discharge. When the negative (–) battery cable is reconnected, check and reset electrical components, such as the clock, radio, etc., and re-initialize ALL applicable systems/functions.
Needing to disconnect the battery if not driving for a week sounds...weird.
It's a 12v battery problem. You might be able to lessen the drain by pulling the "DC Cut" fuse (the same one that's removed in shipping and installed by the destination dealer). You will get all sorts of warning codes (DTC) when you plug it back in, that are easily cleared. I've attached the relative TSBs.
In the pic below..... L/H pic, 3rd column from the left, 4th fuse from the top., 20 amp fuse.
In the pic below..... L/H pic, 3rd column from the left, 4th fuse from the top., 20 amp fuse.
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Always start diagnosing a no crank/no start situation with the most simple explanation first: the battery.
A bad battery will usually reveal itself pretty early in life. In my brief 2 years of selling Toyota’s and BMW’s dead batteries in brand new cars and trucks on the lot was quite common. Very hot summer temps and especially cooler weather would reveal the defective stock batteries pretty reliably.
I think part of the problem is that Toyota chose a really weird charging program for the 12V battery.
Most vehicles will raise the voltage to 14.2-14.4V immediately after a starting the engine to quickly top up the battery, and then switch to a float charge voltage of around 13.2V once the battery has reached ~80% charge level. The high(er) 14+V phase could last anywhere from only a few seconds to several minutes, depending on charge level of the battery. This ensures that the battery is at least 80% charged before the car is parked again. If you measured open circuit voltage of the battery after 30 min of resting time, the voltage is typically somewhere around 12.5-12.6V indicating a fully charged battery.
I am a radio amateur and have wired my LC to power an amateur radio transceiver. The wiring is connected directly to the 12V battery terminals. When using my radio, I noticed that open circuit voltage of the battery with the car OFF is only about 12.2V, which corresponds to about 60% charge level, even after driving the car for extended time. So I started to monitor the 12V system voltage. Here is what I observed:
One day I used a smart charger to fully charge the 12V battery to about 95%. As expected, open circuit voltage after 30 min rest time was a typical 12.6V. But after only a couple of days of driving, the battery was back to ~12.2V (60% charge).
It appears that Toyota chose to maintain the lead-acid 12V battery level around 50-60% instead of charging it fully like in other (non-hybrid) cars. The intention is probably to extend the battery life, but it leaves the battery at a dangerously low charge level if you park the car for more than a few days.
Most vehicles will raise the voltage to 14.2-14.4V immediately after a starting the engine to quickly top up the battery, and then switch to a float charge voltage of around 13.2V once the battery has reached ~80% charge level. The high(er) 14+V phase could last anywhere from only a few seconds to several minutes, depending on charge level of the battery. This ensures that the battery is at least 80% charged before the car is parked again. If you measured open circuit voltage of the battery after 30 min of resting time, the voltage is typically somewhere around 12.5-12.6V indicating a fully charged battery.
I am a radio amateur and have wired my LC to power an amateur radio transceiver. The wiring is connected directly to the 12V battery terminals. When using my radio, I noticed that open circuit voltage of the battery with the car OFF is only about 12.2V, which corresponds to about 60% charge level, even after driving the car for extended time. So I started to monitor the 12V system voltage. Here is what I observed:
- immediately after starting the car, the system goes into the normal "top up" mode with approx. 14.2V.
- however, once the "top up" phase is over, the voltage drops to only 12.7-12.8V, instead of the typical 13.2V like other cars.
One day I used a smart charger to fully charge the 12V battery to about 95%. As expected, open circuit voltage after 30 min rest time was a typical 12.6V. But after only a couple of days of driving, the battery was back to ~12.2V (60% charge).
It appears that Toyota chose to maintain the lead-acid 12V battery level around 50-60% instead of charging it fully like in other (non-hybrid) cars. The intention is probably to extend the battery life, but it leaves the battery at a dangerously low charge level if you park the car for more than a few days.
How did you monitor the voltage - did you record it with equipment you use for the radio? I’ve always been fascinated by amateur radio.
Only -11.
I found about the low open circuit battery voltage when I started to use the radio from the car. The radio displays supply voltage when you turn it on. The wiring is rated 30A (10 AWG cables) and radio only draws ~0.5A when squelched, so for all practical purpose it's open circuit voltage (very small load on the battery and negligible voltage drop on the wiring).
So I connected a digital multimeter (Fluke 117) directly to the battery and started recording voltage while driving and when parked over a few days.
When measuring open circuit voltage of a lead-acid battery it's important to let it rest for 30 min after charging / stopping the car. If you measure the voltage immediately after charging / driving it will read high.
I found that battery voltage is ~12.2V one hour after parking the car, and the voltage gradually drops to about 12V after 3-4 days in the garage. 12V is about 50% charge. So it looks like the highest level the car will charge the battery to is ~60%, and then the battery loses about 3% per day (which is kind of reasonable). This is keeping the car in the garage in Arizona weather (40F in the morning, 70F midday).
It's understandable that in a hybrid it's not that important to keep the 12V battery fully charged because you rely on the hybrid battery to start the engine, but it also leaves you with a low reserve to park the car for extended period of time in cold weather.
BTW, it's not unique to the LC. My wife's Lexus NX350h also keeps voltage lower than our previous non-hybrid vehicles, but instead of only 12.7-12.8V while driving, it at least keeps it at 13.0V, which is enough to charge the 12V battery, albeit very slowly. I did the measurements in my wife's car to compare vs. the LC.
Another observation from the time I was recoding the voltage is that the 12.7-12.8V happens when the car is in Drive. As soon as it is placed in Park, the voltage increases to 14.2V, so it looks like the car does want to charge the battery when stopped/parked. Also, when the headlights are turned on while driving, the voltage increases to 13.2V for some time, and then drops again to 12.8V. All this happens regardless of the gasoline engine running or not, as the source of the energy for the 12V system is the high voltage DC system (hybrid battery and motor-generator).
Evidently Toyota implemented some very unusual charging program for the 12V system, which probably includes considerations such as maximizing fuel economy, extending battery life and maybe other factors. As the 12V system is managed by the hybrid inverter it behaves quite differently from traditional alternator-battery combo.
Since I learned about these quirks of the LC 12V system, I carry a small Li-ion portable jump starter. If does not have to be a large one as the LC uses the hybrid battery to start the engine. The jump starter only needs to provide enough power to activate the hybrid system, and from there on the hybrid battery is the source of energy for the car. Just make sure to keep it inside passenger compartment so that you can access it with the physical key, as you won't be able to open the rear hatch if the 12V battery dies.
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IMO, Toyota supplies a lower charge voltage to extend the life of the sub-par 12v batteries they use. My opinion is based off the four different Toyota models I've owned (Tacoma, Camery, Yaris and the LC) all of which had the same issue and when the OEM battery was replaced, the issue never manifested itself again. The parasitic drain is probably due to radio preset memory, security system, the passive lighting / locking system and the DCM system. There's not a lot you can do about any of those systems or the vehicle's self-diagnosis system will scream at you obsessively. There's a reason Toyota installed a "DC Cut" fuse that when removed, limits 12v battery drain during shipping and must be installed by the destination dealer. It would be great if they would design software to allow disablement, by the end user, for any system the user chose not to use.
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Maybe there is a way to program a higher charge limit then?
Sacrifice battery life a bit to bring up the thresholds on a “full” charge.
Sacrifice battery life a bit to bring up the thresholds on a “full” charge.
Yes, this should be an easy fix.
I have never seen this issue with 7 other Toyotas I had - all were non-hybrids.
On toyotanation.com forum, there are dozens of complaints about new(er) hybrids dying after a few days, but relatively few of similar problems in non-hybrids, and most of those are in vehicles that are several years old.
Welcome to the asylum.
I’m glad that you didn’t get stranded and freeze to death.
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