Hearing a rattle noise at low gear acceleration.

[Vision83]

All the rotating parts would be replaced and the only parts (not being replaced) that I can think of would be affected by oil, would be the heads (and head parts) and those would be cleaned before reassembly. Basically you'd have a brand new engine with used heads (however many miles were on them).

After a little research.
IMO it will really come down to the root cause and the potential amount of metal/debris in the oil. Blackstone only gives me PPM. This was the reasoning for the Tundra long block replacement. A short block replacement is an option, but reusing old parts (like heads and cams) could potentially introduce the debris back into the engine, negating the benefit of the repair. A fully assembled long block replacement engine ensures all components are new and free from debris.

 

[EOD Guy]

After a little research.
IMO it will really come down to the root cause and the potential amount of metal/debris in the oil. Blackstone only gives me PPM. This was the reasoning for the Tundra long block replacement. A short block replacement is an option, but reusing old parts (like heads and cams) could potentially introduce the debris back into the engine, negating the benefit of the repair. A fully assembled long block replacement engine ensures all components are new and free from debris.

Not trying to offend you, but a clean part is a clean part. The cam and bearings would be new in a short block. You would have the same chance of failure with new heads as you would with cleaned old heads.

 

[Vision83]

Not trying to offend you, but a clean part is a clean part. The cam and bearings would be new in a short block. You would have the same chance of failure with new heads as you would with cleaned old heads.

No offence taken in any way. I honestly(and many others) prefer these forums over other platforms for straight forward discussions. I think we all have similar mind sets and are Land Cruiser enthusiast . I am by no means an expert on Toyota engines. Having rebuilt an S85 M5 motor from the ground up after a rod bearing failure, my main concern was always the metal in the oil and what it affected.

 

[EOD Guy]

No offence taken in any way. I honestly(and many others) prefer these forums over other platforms for straight forward discussions. I think we all have similar mind sets and are Land Cruiser enthusiast . I am by no means an expert on Toyota engines. Having rebuilt an S85 M5 motor from the ground up after a rod bearing failure, my main concern was always the metal in the oil and what it affected.

The issue is with the oil passages and short of stripping every single part off the engine and pressurizing the stripped block's oil passages to flush out any contaminates (thus eliminating the chance of reintroducing particulates), there's no other way that I know of to clean the block. That would be so labor intensive and not cost effective, much cheaper to use a short block. Cleaning the heads.......... the oil flows through the internal passage in the push rods which are easily cleaned/replaced which is cost effective. Any mechanic would inspect the valve train surfaces and determine if there was enough wear to warrant replacement etc.......

 

[KyLandcruiser]

Not trying to offend you, but a clean part is a clean part. The cam and bearings would be new in a short block. You would have the same chance of failure with new heads as you would with cleaned old heads.

The cam wouldn’t be new in a T24A short block. These engines are overhead cam. The other disadvantage of a short block replacement would be trying to get a technician that knows how to piece an engine together.

 

[EOD Guy]

The cam wouldn’t be new in a T24A short block. These engines are overhead cam. The other disadvantage of a short block replacement would be trying to get a technician that knows how to piece an engine together.

I stand corrected, I knew it was an overhead cam, but old habits are hard to forget......LOL

 

[Vision83]

The cam wouldn’t be new in a T24A short block. These engines are overhead cam. The other disadvantage of a short block replacement would be trying to get a technician that knows how to piece an engine together.

Agree and even the master techs don't have a ton of experience with the LC250 platform yet.

 

[Vision83]

There are many discussions of this on other platforms. Many good example videos in the comments from other owners with the issue. Still no consensus on the cause/issue.

Link

You have to join the Facebook group to see it.

 

[arash]

Did some more research elsewhere online, and some Toyota techs have advised people that this is normal and is because of the direct injectors, which make this noise when cold. I then searched online for cold direct injector noise, and it looks to be a commonplace thing for various kinds of vehicles.

For example:


I wonder if any of the new 4Runner hybrids have a similar issue since I’d guess the injectors would be similar.

Here’s an example of a last gen 4Runner making a very similar noise under the same circumstance and others saying that’s normal

Is this engine noise normal?

https://youtube.com/shorts/80G_49SNNzI?si=jwDK6DviwSdjvyLW https://youtube.com/shorts/vry4yNGbN5U?si=a3dfIjtKN3Z33IAO I have an audible...

www.4runners.com

Issue is it’s hard to know for sure if the ticking is due to one of these normal causes or if it’s actually something problematic.

 

[Vision83]

Did some more research elsewhere online, and some Toyota techs have advised people that this is normal and is because of the direct injectors, which make this noise when cold. I then searched online for cold direct injector noise, and it looks to be a commonplace thing for various kinds of vehicles.

For example:


I wonder if any of the new 4Runner hybrids have a similar issue since I’d guess the injectors would be similar.

Here’s an example of a last gen 4Runner making a very similar noise under the same circumstance and others saying that’s normal

Is this engine noise normal?

https://youtube.com/shorts/80G_49SNNzI?si=jwDK6DviwSdjvyLW https://youtube.com/shorts/vry4yNGbN5U?si=a3dfIjtKN3Z33IAO I have an audible...

www.4runners.com

Issue is it’s hard to know for sure if the ticking is due to one of these normal causes or if it’s actually something problematic.

While some may have injector noise. This is not the issue for me. Injector noise will not cause high levels of aluminum in the oil. When I hear internal knocking or “piston slap” with the presence of high metal content. It leads me to believe something is not right internally. The metal content has increased with time after break in and 4 oil changes.

 

[grifocx]

FWIW, I also hear a noise. At first it sounded like an exhaust leak to me. I don't have a lot of miles on my 250 yet, so I have not taken it in for its first service yet. Will be making sure to get it documented, and continue to keep my ear to the ground here. Also plan to mount a GoPro externally in a few place to record and try and get some goods external sound captured.

 

[Falconry]

I was watching a review on the new 4 runner where they do a “sound test” on the engine and I nearly fell out of my chair.

Click the link, close your eyes, and listen to how the 4Runner’s t24a-fts engine sounds:


Timestamp should link you to 2:30.

 

[shwazz714]

I was watching a review on the new 4 runner where they do a “sound test” on the engine and I nearly fell out of my chair.

Click the link, close your eyes, and listen to how the 4Runner’s t24a-fts engine sounds:


Timestamp should link you to 2:30.

I hear the rattle!

 

[Vision83]

I hear the rattle!

It is there... but the engine knocking "piston slap" is hard to record from that angle... and generally much louder when the engine is under load/driving. If you mount a go pro near the engine the sound is very clear. We have many good examples of the sound...

It is interesting to hear it on the on new 4 Runners.... Remember Toyota was fully aware of this July-August 2024 and for them to keep producing these without addressing the problem is a major concern. This reminds me of the first Tundra failures before anyone believed there was a problem.

 

[arash]

It's reassuring that it's in the super high volume 4runner as well, which indicates Toyota is likely certain it doesn't cause any harm. There was also a response I saw someone relay from Toyota corporate that they are aware of the issue and do not believe it causes any damage.

One thing though is that I have not noticed the rattle when revving in neutral as the video here is doing. It's present when actually moving at low speed and RPM.

 

[arash]

Here's another video though it doesn't sound quite the same to me: This motor sounds bad. Is it an issue?

 

[Vision83]

It's reassuring that it's in the super high volume 4runner as well, which indicates Toyota is likely certain it doesn't cause any harm. There was also a response I saw someone relay from Toyota corporate that they are aware of the issue and do not believe it causes any damage.

One thing though is that I have not noticed the rattle when revving in neutral as the video here is doing. It's present when actually moving at low speed and RPM.

This is not reassuring to me... this points to a larger failure happening at Toyota. First the 3.4l V6 (machine debris) and now the 2.4l I4 (main bearing redesign)

All Toyota corporate representatives will say there is no problem.
All FTS representatives will say there is no problem.
All legal analyst with corporate will say there is no problem.
All service managers will say there is no problem until there is recall.
Most Techs are not allowed to comment.

This is ALL by design... I was 100% naive going into this thinking Toyota would do the right thing and would never lie to my face. In my case the service manager, the FTS field rep, the corporate case owner, and the Denver region for escalations all lied to me over the phone and in writing.

You are going to hear this story over and over... The engine knocking / piston slap / engine rattle is a "Normal characteristic" of the vehicle. and there is no issue "at this time" or "at this point in time".

Well the knocking/piston slap is NOT a "normal characteristic" for ANY car. I have viewed over 20 different cases with videos of this same problem, I don't know the true scale (but this is not a one off case)... Many people really just don't know what to look for.

These are the facts from my case .

1. I have been offered a full short block replacement (but no guarantee this will even fix the problem)
2. I have extremely high levels of aluminum after the 4th oil change and break in
3. I was told directly that there was redesign the main bearings. But no other information.

The only saving grace for Toyota was they did offer a short block replacement... but this was after fighting with them for 10 months! But even with a short block replacement there is no guarantee it will be fixed.

I don't know what the long term affects of this are going to be... but engine knocking, high metal oil content and full short block replacements on 76K new SUV is not good.

 

[Vision83]

It's reassuring that it's in the super high volume 4runner as well, which indicates Toyota is likely certain it doesn't cause any harm. There was also a response I saw someone relay from Toyota corporate that they are aware of the issue and do not believe it causes any damage.

One thing though is that I have not noticed the rattle when revving in neutral as the video here is doing. It's present when actually moving at low speed and RPM.

Here is the best video to date of the sound. Yes it generally will happen when the vehicle is under load or driving.


Here is another video while in park and showing the issue as well.

 

[arash]

This is not reassuring to me... this points to a larger failure happening at Toyota. First the 3.4l V6 (machine debris) and now the 2.4l I4 (main bearing redesign)

All Toyota corporate representatives will say there is no problem.
All FTS representatives will say there is no problem.
All legal analyst with corporate will say there is no problem.
All service managers will say there is no problem until there is recall.
Most Techs are not allowed to comment.

This is ALL by design... I was 100% naive going into this thinking Toyota would do the right thing and would never lie to my face. In my case the service manager, the FTS field rep, the corporate case owner, and the Denver region for escalations all lied to me over the phone and in writing.

You are going to hear this story over and over... The engine knocking / piston slap / engine rattle is a "Normal characteristic" of the vehicle. and there is no issue "at this time" or "at this point in time".

Well the knocking/piston slap is NOT a "normal characteristic" for ANY car. I have viewed over 20 different cases with videos of this same problem, I don't know the true scale (but this is not a one off case)... Many people really just don't know what to look for.

These are the facts from my case .

1. I have been offered a full short block replacement (but no guarantee this will even fix the problem)
2. I have extremely high levels of aluminum after the 4th oil change and break in
3. I was told directly that there was redesign the main bearings. But no other information.

The only saving grace for Toyota was they did offer a short block replacement... but this was after fighting with them for 10 months! But even with a short block replacement there is no guarantee it will be fixed.

I don't know what the long term affects of this are going to be... but engine knocking, high metal oil content and full short block replacements on 76K new SUV is not good.

You're correct in identifying this as piston slap. This is the same issue discussed in this earlier thread: Lemon already?

Piston slap on cold engines is relatively common (see many Subary/Porsche boxer engines) and generally don't cause problems with engine longevity in the cases where it only happens when the engine is cold and goes away when the engine warms up. The reason it happens is because the engine parts are built to tolerances when the materials are at operating temperature, and various materials will expand at different rates in regards to temperature. It's unfortunate that Toyota released an engine that has this quality, but it doesn't indicate it will make the engine have an early death, and it's not obvious that it's what's leading to your high level of aluminum.

 

[Vision83]

You're correct in identifying this as piston slap. This is the same issue discussed in this earlier thread: Lemon already?

Piston slap on cold engines is relatively common (see many Subary/Porsche boxer engines) and generally don't cause problems with engine longevity in the cases where it only happens when the engine is cold and goes away when the engine warms up. The reason it happens is because the engine parts are built to tolerances when the materials are at operating temperature, and various materials will expand at different rates in regards to temperature. It's unfortunate that Toyota released an engine that has this quality, but it doesn't indicate it will make the engine have an early death, and it's not obvious that it's what's leading to your high level of aluminum.

Toyota is addressing this by replacing the entire motor and a redesign to the main bearings. I don't think "piston slap" was part of their plan. The piston slap on mine happens at all temperatures and gets worst as the engine temperature goes up. We are really at the mercy of what Toyota decides to release. My suggestion is to document everything and have the oil check by Blackstone for metal if you are having this issue.

I think this will be the likely outcome... and has been said by other people on this thread.
They reiterated that replacing the short block may resolve the noise, which may (or may not be) caused by an issue with something in the crank/oiling passage/main bearings.

Toyota will have to be transparent when addressing this. Otherwise we are not going to allow a short block replacement without a confirmation it is even going to fix the problem.