Disappointing TSS 3.0 on JC250

[Marinna]

I am a big lover for ADAS and my previous experience with TSS is on my other car (2017 Prius Prime) which is running on TSS-P. I also have been using the aftermarket Comma 3 with FrogPilot branch for a few years

So far I have drive my 2024 LC for 4000 miles, trying to test the latest TSS 3.0 in various situations. I kept my TSS 3.0 setting mostly on the aggressive/sensitive side. This is my observations. Starting from the good but there aren't too many:

1. DRCC is working well
I found DRCC can actually covers vehicles switching into my lane from left/right lane quite well. Even after comparing to the Comma 3 on Prius Prime which is also using radar on the front this is still a huge improvement.

2. LTA Handles turning with strong torque than many other alternative
This is one feature I really love but don't have it on TSS-P. On Comma 3 it worked well on highway but that is the only scenario I would trust it. But on LC I find it can even handle the highway exit reasonable well, though I still don't yet fully trust it.

3. Road Sign Assist
It is alright, not specifically impressive comparing to a more capable system like Tesla FSD. But in one scenario where I drive my US model in Canada it seems to handle the country difference better than what I would expect, whenever it detects the road sign.

Now this is the list of "bad" things I really don't like/trust:
1. Awkward lane detection
I got that it sometimes can be hard with heavily worn asphalt and rain/snow/mud pavement. But still comparing to my Comma 3, which has been trained on a crowded model, from 2 years ago, it is inexplicably bad. You are Toyota, the biggest automaker of the world. If you can't get enough data to train than buy it. Even an open source ADAS solution performs better than you. This is a failure.

2. Flaky AHB
I am counting on this feature when driving in the less populated suburban area. I will have to say this is still quite flaky. It often stops working after a while that I have to re-enable it on the AHB button. I am not sure whether this is intentional or it is just buggy.

3. Noisy LTA
LTA works well with intruding vehicles, but also gets a bit noisy with many false alarm and completely out of order when it fails to detect the lane just because the ground marks gets faded or wet. They need to improve the algorithm not just to count on the marked line itself but also the entire scenario from the video. Many others can already do better than Toyota. I will describe this as not quite useful other than driving on boring highway when the weather is ideal

4. DRCC/PDA could be smarter
I remember driving ADAS on KIA EV6, it has a very adaptive DRCC/PDA. Depends on your speed the car will respond to surrounding event at different threshold. This is definitely the way this feature needs to go, instead of fixed sensitivity on the menu. I have it turned on but I don't have very high level of trust for it to do things right.

5. DRCC failed to work when driving in snow
Probably not their design issue (or is it?), but I found this issue with quite a bit surprised. Because they put the front radar as a flat plate on the grill, it actually is quite easy to trap snow and dirt. The radar wave length is not capable to penetrate through water so once you drive in snow for a while it will stop to work.

6. No user accessible DMC
They don't allow the drive to access DMC video footage when it can see your data by uploading them to the cloud secretly in the background. I really don't appreciate it. This feature is an additional charge on LC and FE trim but why can't I use it?

7. Gimmicky Dashcam
Not only the quality of the video is not good, but it has almost none of the integration with the car itself. (If they do a cloud integration similar to DMC and actually allow driver to download it, they could sell the cloud service with additional and recurring revenue) Come on Toyota it is 2024 now and why would you give me something that even a cheap Chinese knock-off can do better than you?


Overall, I will describe the TSS 3.0 on LC 5/10. I took three points off from the HW being less capable, and two points off from disappointing SW maturity.

 

[ultane]

You are one of those inmates, whom I wish that I knew half as much as you..

 

[cvx5832LC]

I am a big lover for ADAS and my previous experience with TSS is on my other car (2017 Prius Prime) which is running on TSS-P. I also have been using the aftermarket Comma 3 with FrogPilot branch for a few years

So far I have drive my 2024 LC for 4000 miles, trying to test the latest TSS 3.0 in various situations. I kept my TSS 3.0 setting mostly on the aggressive/sensitive side. This is my observations. Starting from the good but there aren't too many:

1. DRCC is working well
I found DRCC can actually covers vehicles switching into my lane from left/right lane quite well. Even after comparing to the Comma 3 on Prius Prime which is also using radar on the front this is still a huge improvement.

2. LTA Handles turning with strong torque than many other alternative
This is one feature I really love but don't have it on TSS-P. On Comma 3 it worked well on highway but that is the only scenario I would trust it. But on LC I find it can even handle the highway exit reasonable well, though I still don't yet fully trust it.

3. Road Sign Assist
It is alright, not specifically impressive comparing to a more capable system like Tesla FSD. But in one scenario where I drive my US model in Canada it seems to handle the country difference better than what I would expect, whenever it detects the road sign.

Now this is the list of "bad" things I really don't like/trust:
1. Awkward lane detection
I got that it sometimes can be hard with heavily worn asphalt and rain/snow/mud pavement. But still comparing to my Comma 3, which has been trained on a crowded model, from 2 years ago, it is inexplicably bad. You are Toyota, the biggest automaker of the world. If you can't get enough data to train than buy it. Even an open source ADAS solution performs better than you. This is a failure.

2. Flaky AHB
I am counting on this feature when driving in the less populated suburban area. I will have to say this is still quite flaky. It often stops working after a while that I have to re-enable it on the AHB button. I am not sure whether this is intentional or it is just buggy.

3. Noisy LTA
LTA works well with intruding vehicles, but also gets a bit noisy with many false alarm and completely out of order when it fails to detect the lane just because the ground marks gets faded or wet. They need to improve the algorithm not just to count on the marked line itself but also the entire scenario from the video. Many others can already do better than Toyota. I will describe this as not quite useful other than driving on boring highway when the weather is ideal

4. DRCC/PDA could be smarter
I remember driving ADAS on KIA EV6, it has a very adaptive DRCC/PDA. Depends on your speed the car will respond to surrounding event at different threshold. This is definitely the way this feature needs to go, instead of fixed sensitivity on the menu. I have it turned on but I don't have very high level of trust for it to do things right.

5. DRCC failed to work when driving in snow
Probably not their design issue (or is it?), but I found this issue with quite a bit surprised. Because they put the front radar as a flat plate on the grill, it actually is quite easy to trap snow and dirt. The radar wave length is not capable to penetrate through water so once you drive in snow for a while it will stop to work.

6. No user accessible DMC
They don't allow the drive to access DMC video footage when it can see your data by uploading them to the cloud secretly in the background. I really don't appreciate it. This feature is an additional charge on LC and FE trim but why can't I use it?

7. Gimmicky Dashcam
Not only the quality of the video is not good, but it has almost none of the integration with the car itself. (If they do a cloud integration similar to DMC and actually allow driver to download it, they could sell the cloud service with additional and recurring revenue) Come on Toyota it is 2024 now and why would you give me something that even a cheap Chinese knock-off can do better than you?


Overall, I will describe the TSS 3.0 on LC 5/10. I took three points off from the HW being less capable, and two points off from disappointing SW maturity.

JC250, coming soon to your local Nativity scene

 

[Marinna]

You are one of those inmates, whom I wish that I knew half as much as you..

I am guessing there are little to none of the owners of these offroad trucks are interested to ADAS. After all it is not useful at all when you leave the pavement and car companies only start to put these features on a truck for the last 2-3 years

 

[TakaraLC]

I am a big lover for ADAS and my previous experience with TSS is on my other car (2017 Prius Prime) which is running on TSS-P. I also have been using the aftermarket Comma 3 with FrogPilot branch for a few years

So far I have drive my 2024 LC for 4000 miles, trying to test the latest TSS 3.0 in various situations. I kept my TSS 3.0 setting mostly on the aggressive/sensitive side. This is my observations. Starting from the good but there aren't too many:

1. DRCC is working well
I found DRCC can actually covers vehicles switching into my lane from left/right lane quite well. Even after comparing to the Comma 3 on Prius Prime which is also using radar on the front this is still a huge improvement.

2. LTA Handles turning with strong torque than many other alternative
This is one feature I really love but don't have it on TSS-P. On Comma 3 it worked well on highway but that is the only scenario I would trust it. But on LC I find it can even handle the highway exit reasonable well, though I still don't yet fully trust it.

3. Road Sign Assist
It is alright, not specifically impressive comparing to a more capable system like Tesla FSD. But in one scenario where I drive my US model in Canada it seems to handle the country difference better than what I would expect, whenever it detects the road sign.

Now this is the list of "bad" things I really don't like/trust:
1. Awkward lane detection
I got that it sometimes can be hard with heavily worn asphalt and rain/snow/mud pavement. But still comparing to my Comma 3, which has been trained on a crowded model, from 2 years ago, it is inexplicably bad. You are Toyota, the biggest automaker of the world. If you can't get enough data to train than buy it. Even an open source ADAS solution performs better than you. This is a failure.

2. Flaky AHB
I am counting on this feature when driving in the less populated suburban area. I will have to say this is still quite flaky. It often stops working after a while that I have to re-enable it on the AHB button. I am not sure whether this is intentional or it is just buggy.

3. Noisy LTA
LTA works well with intruding vehicles, but also gets a bit noisy with many false alarm and completely out of order when it fails to detect the lane just because the ground marks gets faded or wet. They need to improve the algorithm not just to count on the marked line itself but also the entire scenario from the video. Many others can already do better than Toyota. I will describe this as not quite useful other than driving on boring highway when the weather is ideal

4. DRCC/PDA could be smarter
I remember driving ADAS on KIA EV6, it has a very adaptive DRCC/PDA. Depends on your speed the car will respond to surrounding event at different threshold. This is definitely the way this feature needs to go, instead of fixed sensitivity on the menu. I have it turned on but I don't have very high level of trust for it to do things right.

5. DRCC failed to work when driving in snow
Probably not their design issue (or is it?), but I found this issue with quite a bit surprised. Because they put the front radar as a flat plate on the grill, it actually is quite easy to trap snow and dirt. The radar wave length is not capable to penetrate through water so once you drive in snow for a while it will stop to work.

6. No user accessible DMC
They don't allow the drive to access DMC video footage when it can see your data by uploading them to the cloud secretly in the background. I really don't appreciate it. This feature is an additional charge on LC and FE trim but why can't I use it?

7. Gimmicky Dashcam
Not only the quality of the video is not good, but it has almost none of the integration with the car itself. (If they do a cloud integration similar to DMC and actually allow driver to download it, they could sell the cloud service with additional and recurring revenue) Come on Toyota it is 2024 now and why would you give me something that even a cheap Chinese knock-off can do better than you?


Overall, I will describe the TSS 3.0 on LC 5/10. I took three points off from the HW being less capable, and two points off from disappointing SW maturity.

One thing to mention is that the distance setting for adaptive cruise control also controls the distance for PDA. I find PDA much more useful after setting the breaking distance below a distance where I usually break. With this setting, it only interferes if I am breaking late. There is a button in the steering wheel to control this distance, so it is easy to customize it based on driving conditions etc.

About snow building up on the radar. That is a common issues since the radar surface needs to be flat. But some manufacturers like BMW have heaters on their radar units to prevent ice buildup.

 

[ultane]

I am guessing there are little to none of the owners of these offroad trucks are interested to ADAS. After all it is not useful at all when you leave the pavement and car companies only start to put these features on a truck for the last 2-3 years

Honestly, I am still trying to figure most of Miss Daisy’s features out. Maybe if I spent less time on this forum, and more time reading the owners manual, I could catch up. I am clueless as to the meaning of half of the abbreviations that you used. Someone could make a handsome profit if they wrote a book “Land Cruisers For Idiots”.

 

[Marinna]

Honestly, I am still trying to figure most of Miss Daisy’s features out. Maybe if I spent less time on this forum, and more time reading the owners manual, I could catch up. I am clueless as to the meaning of half of the abbreviations that you used. Someone could make a handsome profit if they wrote a book “Land Cruisers For Idiots”.

This is actually my hobby as well as one of the job I had before. So I know all these suppliers for each of these features, as well as the methods/algorithms they used.

If you ask me I think Toyota shouldn’t put the burden of setting each of these features to their drivers. It is more of engineering terminologies than proper presentation of car features. I personally have no problems with it, prefers it even. But I can see vast majority of the drivers would hate it.

 

[Area 51]

Having driven the latest and greatest new rev of a fully automated and current algo vehicle for the last 3 weeks.,,, I now understand better why there are so many horrific deadly accident these days. Places like the Bay Area, over populated with really bad drivers that think this stuff replaces high end driving skills. Even just prudent up to date driving skills.

 

[Marinna]

Having driven the latest and greatest new rev of a fully automated and current algo vehicle for the last 3 weeks.,,, I now understand better why there are so many horrific deadly accident these days. Places like the Bay Area, over populated with really bad drivers that think this stuff replaces high end driving skills. Even just prudent up to date driving skills.

So far the only car you can buy that allegedly comes with capable technology is Mercedes, which they claimed L3 that allows you to engage other activities while be ready to take over anytime. I never try it myself. That is still only ADAS not AD. The approach between ADAS and AD is fundamentally different and I don’t know that anybody has even close to mass production for AD.

The “bad driver” you just described probably drives ok, they just forget to read user manual or thinks it is just a reference

 

[Area 51]

Silicon Valley is littered with many many simply bad and incapable drivers. Nothing to do with the vehicle they should not be attempting to drive either purposely or due to lack of skill. I see it every time i am down there trying to escape unharmed and no vehicle incidents with the fools of fools. Many just don't care, the road racer types cause some very serious wrecks every week. Then there are the rest. The Bay Area has turned into t areal toilet over the past years. No one is happy and it shows in many ways. The horrid road activities are one very big way it shows every day, 24 x 7.

 

[Atomic67]

Coming from a 2013 Tacoma, the features seem magical! But yeah I think a very large company should be out front as far as technology or at least in the main pack.

 

[Marinna]

Coming from a 2013 Tacoma, the features seem magical! But yeah I think a very large company should be out front as far as technology or at least in the main pack.

Speaking from my professional experience, Toyota did a lot of homework but haven’t been delivered as the whole being conservative thing. These electrical works kind of like computers. Every 2-3 years you can see a new generation come alive on product. So 11 years is at least 4-5 generations of designs apart.

The tricky thing for ADAS is, either you trust it, or you don’t. Right now I will feel comfortable to say that except for a few niche use cases I don’t trust TSS 3.0 at all, so that whole big TSS 3.0 advertisement doesn’t add much value. I expect around 2030 (takes another 3-4 years for these automotive guys to learn how to design a chip, and another 1-2 years to get the SW done right) you will see a truck load of vehicles that comes with real change to ADAS. Still only L2 but at least the L2 that you can finally trust. Though I would never expect ADAS to work right when it comes to offroading

 

[Ishtar]

Honestly, I am still trying to figure most of Miss Daisy’s features out. Maybe if I spent less time on this forum, and more time reading the owners manual, I could catch up. I am clueless as to the meaning of half of the abbreviations that you used. Someone could make a handsome profit if they wrote a book “Land Cruisers For Idiots”.

I hear ya! At first I was completely lost. I came from a vehicle where a simple bluetooth connection was the most advanced feature. Most of the time, the manual made things more confusing so I started watching Toyota's TSS 3.0 YT videos - one at a time. Those filled in some of the blanks which helped me get into the manual. Next I spent a great deal of time in the garage playing with the buttons, adjusting the settings, and driving up and down my street. Of course my neighbor thought I was nuts but I believe he thinks I'm crazy anyway. I also found a lot of info from this forum. Anyway, I am now pretty comfortable with TSS and have all of the systems on and customized to my liking. I love it!

 

[LandCruiserSteve]

Since I'm a total idiot when it comes to deciphering acronyms, I wish there was an automatic glossary that would pop up somewhere within postings so stupid non-gearheads like myself can keep up with the conversations.

Anyway, I have no idea what the acronyms in this thread stand for:
ADAS
TSS
DRCC
TSS-P
L3
AD
LTA
AHB
DRCC/PDA
TSS 3.0
FSD
DMC

(Feel free to beat me up over this comment. I'm so stupid that I won't even notice it. )

 

[fftfk]

Agreed about the acronyms. The only one I know is PDA because that is the one that made me mad enough to actually go figure out what it was doing. Now that it is turned off I am happy with the car.

 

[Dark_Horse]

Agreed about the acronyms. The only one I know is PDA because that is the one that made me mad enough to actually go figure out what it was doing. Now that it is turned off I am happy with the car.

PDA= Public Display of Affection.......don't we all do that when we park our Land Cruisers and walk away still staring at it?????

 

[Marinna]

Since I'm a total idiot when it comes to deciphering acronyms, I wish there was an automatic glossary that would pop up somewhere within postings so stupid non-gearheads like myself can keep up with the conversations.

Anyway, I have no idea what the acronyms in this thread stand for:
ADAS
TSS
DRCC
TSS-P
L3
AD
LTA
AHB
DRCC/PDA
TSS 3.0
FSD
DMC

(Feel free to beat me up over this comment. I'm so stupid that I won't even notice it. )

Toyota owner manual has them all.

If you are brand new to these “smart” feature, my suggestion is to turn the entire TSS 3.0 functions off in the menu, drive it as dumb car first. Once you get familiar with the basics, slowly turn each feature on one at a time so you know what they do exactly. Use them improperly could actually endanger your own safety.

For the generic terms I use professionally:

SAE classification of driving automation:

https://www.sae.org/standards/content/j3016_202104/

ADAS: Automatic Driver Assistance System
AD: Autonomous Driving

ADAS is generally considered L2, all the smart features on LC are in this category
AD is considered L4+, which none of the car s in the near future could have it due to the prohibitive cost. (you are looking at tripling or quadrupling the price of a car)

The highest you can buy right now is Mercedes EQS, which they claimed to be L3. This is the level you can start to transfer some of the liability to manufacturer should you involved in a traffic accident. Even with Tesla telling their buyer how smart the cars are, they are still not willing to be responsible to accidents on their product when FSD is activated. With L2 you are taking the full responsibility and you can't blame the computer

 

[jnsplace]

I find the LTA better marginally than my Subie's LTA which was very intrusive. I'm just glad it doesn't beep at me. I do find the steering jerk annoying, that said, it's a safety function that when I'm tired, I appreicate.

 

[Marinna]

I find the LTA better marginally than my Subie's LTA which was very intrusive. I'm just glad it doesn't beep at me. I do find the steering jerk annoying, that said, it's a safety function that when I'm tired, I appreicate.

This is what Toyota says in their TSS 3.0 material: "is designed to activelyt provide steering inputs that helps keep the vehicle centered in its lane". However the way it actually works is to have the vehicle bouncing within the lane between two lines. The module is typically located right behind the windshield where your camera is.

This is why I always feel the car is about the get outside of the lane when TSS 3.0 only correct in the last minute. What the system is supposed to do is to provide a small but very frequent correction to my car's location. At least that is what Comma 3 did on my 17' Prius Prime. Apparently it did not happen. If I have to take a guess it only detects lanes at very low rate and correction always comes late with bigger input torque to the steering. That must be why jerks happens. If you observe from the side the car will drive like a drunk driver with TSS 3.0.

 

[TheBat]

This is what Toyota says in their TSS 3.0 material: "is designed to activelyt provide steering inputs that helps keep the vehicle centered in its lane". However the way it actually works is to have the vehicle bouncing within the lane between two lines. This is why I always feel the car is about the get outside of the lane when TSS 3.0 only correct in the last minute. What the system is supposed to do is to provide a small but very frequent correction to my car's location. At least that is what my Comma 3 did on my 17' Prius Prime. Apparently it did not happen. If I have to take a guess it only detects lanes at very low rate and correction always comes late with bigger input torque to the steering. That is why jerks happens. If you observe from the side the car will drive like a drunk driver.

That's interesting. I find that mine does a decent job of keeping the center of the lane without jerky adjustments. In my 1958 what I don't like and what prevents me engaging it most of the time is that on the highway I use a very light grip on the wheel with only a few fingers of one hand and that isn't enough to satisfy the sensors that I am paying attention.