Dealer Negotiations

[Muddygriff]

Hello All. I am excited to start the buying process of a new Land Cruiser. I love shopping for cars. I hate actually buying them. My first hurdle is that I want the 18” wheels, which are supposedly better for off roading (I’m new to the off road scene, as well), and apparently $1230 cheaper than the 20”. I can’t seem to find a dealer that is selling any vehicle with 18” wheels. When I ask if they can switch them out and take off the extra charge, they say they can’t, their hands are tied on this. Should I press the issue or not? Any advice on this or any other tips on the buying process would be much appreciated. Thanks- Jim

 

[Markarian421]

With the 20" wheels it seems to be a Toyota regional thing that the dealers can't control. Out here in California nearly all the Land Cruiser trim w/premium package come with 20" wheels from the factory. Go a state or two over to Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, and they have 18" wheels. My theory is that they think people in/near cities are going to want the 20" wheels and people in rural states won't? Only Toyota knows the reasoning.

I'm in no hurry, so I'm waiting -- a few LC's with 18" wheels have started to show up here. Option (b) is find a dealer in a region w/o the 20" wheels and go buy there. Option (c) is wait until prices drop enough that a dealer is willing to make a deal?

 

[EOD Guy]

My advice.......

Determine what your must haves are. Then decide what your wants are. Look at vehicles with must have list complete, from that list, how many wants are available for "X" dollars. The one that has all the must have and as many of the wants for the cheapest price is the one I'd go for.

 

[I am here now]

I’m seeing the gulf states region, where I am, being delivered land cruisers with the premium options and package listed and 18 inch wheels. I wouldn’t want 20 inch wheels either because it doesn’t make sense for being off road.

 

[EOD Guy]

Let me start off with....... your money buy/do what you want....

I keep hearing 20" wheels are not good for off-roading, so why is that? Unless you are airing the tires down so they are running on the rims, which is just dumb or you're rock crawling in some pretty serious rocks and need the sidewall flex/keep the rims off boulders. With an 18" rim (vs 20") you gain 2" of distance on the tire wall and might not scrape the actual rim ........... 2" loss on the sidewall should not make one bit of difference for the weekender rough trail adventurer. Airing down for sand also wouldn't make a bit of difference for the average off-roader, because you're still increasing the tire footprint , that footprint will only get so wide before it's maxed out and when you reach that, de-beading the tire becomes an issue.

 

[I am here now]

Let me start off with....... your money buy/do what you want....

I keep hearing 20" wheels are not good for off-roading, so why is that? Unless you are airing the tires down so they are running on the rims, which is just dumb or you're rock crawling in some pretty serious rocks and need the sidewall flex/keep the rims off boulders. With an 18" rim (vs 20") you gain 2" of distance on the tire wall and might not scrape the actual rim ........... 2" loss on the sidewall should not make one bit of difference for the weekender rough trail adventurer. Airing down for sand also wouldn't make a bit of difference for the average off-roader, because you're still increasing the tire footprint , that footprint will only get so wide before it's maxed out and when you reach that, de-beading the tire becomes an issue.

Weight, sidewall, price, options, towing. I don’t need a performative explanation about tires and wheels from you.

 

[EOD Guy]

Weight, sidewall, price, options. I don’t need a moronic, performative explanation about tires and wheels from you.

Please feel free to mark me as ignore, that way you won't be bothered by anything I post!

Opinions don't influence facts, but facts should influence opinions.

 

[LcAz]

Let me start off with....... your money buy/do what you want....

I keep hearing 20" wheels are not good for off-roading, so why is that? Unless you are airing the tires down so they are running on the rims, which is just dumb or you're rock crawling in some pretty serious rocks and need the sidewall flex/keep the rims off boulders. With an 18" rim (vs 20") you gain 2" of distance on the tire wall and might not scrape the actual rim ........... 2" loss on the sidewall should not make one bit of difference for the weekender rough trail adventurer. Airing down for sand also wouldn't make a bit of difference for the average off-roader, because you're still increasing the tire footprint , that footprint will only get so wide before it's maxed out and when you reach that, de-beading the tire becomes an issue.

In much of the country sidewall may not be a big issue as it is mostly mud and dirt (many trails east of...say..colorado). Even weekend warriors in the west need as much sidewall protection and rim protection as possible (your rim is 1 inch closer to the pointy rocks below and on the side). you lose some pliability of the sidewall, it just wond deform as much to protect from puncture and rim hits from the side. I offroad a ton here in Az. I cant tell you how many tires I have helped change on the trail... Way more frequent to have a flat with a bigger rim. 20 inches isnt careless, but over 20 inches has no business on trails out here. The second and possibly even bigger issue is ride quality on rough rocky roads. Airing down is essential and added sidewall is king in this arena. Even on some of the simpler trails im at 18-20 psi and it makes a huge difference. I really wouldnt run over an 18 inch rim at those pressures unless it was a specialty built rig with beadlocks, and even then in my experience I would have a much higher likelihood of ending up stranded.

 

[andialpha]

Let me start off with....... your money buy/do what you want....

I keep hearing 20" wheels are not good for off-roading, so why is that? Unless you are airing the tires down so they are running on the rims, which is just dumb or you're rock crawling in some pretty serious rocks and need the sidewall flex/keep the rims off boulders. With an 18" rim (vs 20") you gain 2" of distance on the tire wall and might not scrape the actual rim ........... 2" loss on the sidewall should not make one bit of difference for the weekender rough trail adventurer. Airing down for sand also wouldn't make a bit of difference for the average off-roader, because you're still increasing the tire footprint , that footprint will only get so wide before it's maxed out and when you reach that, de-beading the tire becomes an issue.

Tat's an interesting point. However, i thought you gain only 1" sidewall when going from 20 to 18" wheels as it's the diameter and only the part on the ground matters, is that correct? Also, when I looked at the 20" stock rims and tires it at least visually looked to me that you can easily hit a curb with the rims.......

 

[LcAz]

Save the tall sidewalls! — Exploring Overland

Take a look at the tires on this truck. I did not stop to see what size they were, as I was afraid the owner would appear and I’d have to pretend I was admiring the thing. And my iPhone snapshot won’t blow up enough to read the sidewalls. The wheels were certainly 22s at minimum. The aspect ratio

www.exploringoverland.com

 

[Hiker42]

Here's what worked for me:

I used the Toyota configurator to build the car I wanted to my specs, then set a nationwide search area to see what is/will be available. I found one configured as I wanted, plus the premium package, that was allocated to a dealer in FL (I live in GA). I went to the dealer's website and found the car listed there. The website had a button to "unlock your lower price". After supplying my contact info, it presented a price under MSRP. The price was low enough for me to justify getting the premium package. I called them an put a deposit down a few days ago. LC Trim, Blue/Java 18" wheels, premium package, nothing else.

 

[EOD Guy]

I did not mean to ruffle any feathers .......... I can't disagree with the logic above, I am referring to the occasional off roader who travels on rough terrain roads vs jagged rocks and boulders.

 

[EOD Guy]

Here's what worked for me:

I used the Toyota configurator to build the car I wanted to my specs, then set a nationwide search area to see what is/will be available. I found one configured as I wanted, plus the premium package, that was allocated to a dealer in FL (I live in GA). I went to the dealer's website and found the car listed there. The website had a button to "unlock your lower price". After supplying my contact info, it presented a price under MSRP. The price was low enough for me to justify getting the premium package. I called them an put a deposit down a few days ago. LC Trim, Blue/Java 18" wheels, premium package, nothing else.

Nice!

 

[TumaloCruzer]

Opinions don't influence facts, but facts should influence opinions.

The problem is, a lot of people feel compelled to share their opinion before they have all the facts. Can't tell you how many times people have tried to tell me what kind of tire I should run, who have never been to the high-desert in Oregon. Haven't gone off road with sharp volcanic rock embedded into trails. Haven't lived in a place where in June you can drive 30min up to the mountain and there's still snow pack, but it's 75 degrees in town. Not sure why people look only at their own situation and feel like they are an authority on other people's life, but that's the internet.

 

[EOD Guy]

The problem is, a lot of people feel compelled to share their opinion before they have all the facts. Can't tell you how many times people have tried to tell me what kind of tire I should run, who have never been to the high-desert in Oregon. Haven't gone off road with sharp volcanic rock embedded into trails. Haven't lived in a place where in June you can drive 30min up to the mountain and there's still snow pack, but it's 75 degrees in town. Not sure why people look only at their own situation and feel like they are an authority on other people's life, but that's the internet.

Well said and you have the knowledge of what works, what might work and what does not work.

 

[LcAz]

The problem is, a lot of people feel compelled to share their opinion before they have all the facts. Can't tell you how many times people have tried to tell me what kind of tire I should run, who have never been to the high-desert in Oregon. Haven't gone off road with sharp volcanic rock embedded into trails. Haven't lived in a place where in June you can drive 30min up to the mountain and there's still snow pack, but it's 75 degrees in town. Not sure why people look only at their own situation and feel like they are an authority on other people's life, but that's the internet.

Im always thankful for genuine sharing online of ones personal reasons for choosing whatever they like. I have learned so much from reading thoughtful responses. Its pretty easy to spot the ones who only care if they are right vs those who want to help share what may be a helpful perspective. I will say the LC forum is filled with many more of the latter. The Raptor forum I frequent is much less helpful.

 

[Muddygriff]

Yes, thank you all for these responses! This is my first day on here and after I posted I saw other great threads. There is much for me to learn! I will definitely try that national search, and I think I will lean towards the 18” even if I have to travel to get them.

 

[RUN-8]

Let me start off with....... your money buy/do what you want....

I keep hearing 20" wheels are not good for off-roading, so why is that? Unless you are airing the tires down so they are running on the rims, which is just dumb or you're rock crawling in some pretty serious rocks and need the sidewall flex/keep the rims off boulders. With an 18" rim (vs 20") you gain 2" of distance on the tire wall and might not scrape the actual rim ........... 2" loss on the sidewall should not make one bit of difference for the weekender rough trail adventurer. Airing down for sand also wouldn't make a bit of difference for the average off-roader, because you're still increasing the tire footprint , that footprint will only get so wide before it's maxed out and when you reach that, de-beading the tire becomes an issue.

Even for the occasional weekend warrior who only plans to bomb around on US Forest Service roads, and mild off road driving the more sidewall you can get the better. I will not get into airing down, because without bead lock wheels and pretty good sized tires that is not terribly practical for most.

However, that 1” of extra sidewall compliance on the tire will still make a difference in tire longevity in the event you do find it rubbing on rocks or other hazards. Plus the tires are the first part of the vehicle suspension in contact with the ground, those balloons we roll around on are the initial part of the system for soaking up impacts. Taller sidewalks just soak up impacts better, life is easier on the vehicle and the occupants over rough stuff with tires that can take more edge off of whumps, bumps, pot holes, washboard, etc.

One option for the crowd stuck with 20”s would be to go source a set of 17” Toyota steelies and put some 285/70/17 tires on them or even 285/75/17’s. That will soften things up nicely and put those meats on a set of wheels made for abuse. Then put your 20”s with highway tires back on for Monday-Friday duty.

 

[TheBat]

On my previous 5G 4R I ran winter's on 17s and all seasons on 20s. The difference in the spring on road during pothole season was quite significant. The 17s were much more compliant and once the 20s were on it was a much more jarring ride. Once the city filled the potholes mind you the firmer ride off the 20s was preferable to me for the summer.

 

[daspyknows]

Please feel free to mark me as ignore, that way you won't be bothered by anything I post!

Opinions don't influence facts, but facts should influence opinions.

Unfortunately we live in a world where everyone has their own facts. In that case opinions are facts in the minds of some.